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A phone call from inside the WTC on September 11, 2001.
In spring of 2001, I was working at One World Financial Center in downtown Manhattan. One day, while out for lunch with a colleague, we passed the Twin Towers and I remarked on how odd it was that someone thought they could actually knock them down. It seemed undoable. A few weeks later I was in Slovenia, and a few weeks after that, someone managed to pulverize both of them.
The question of who that “someone” was continues to rage on, despite all signs pointing to a band of al Qaeda jerk offs. Upon reading the latest Osama bin Laden transcript, I thought how odd it must be for him; he presumably masterminded the most lethal attack on the continental United States in its history — doing more damage than Nazi Germany, Imperial Japan, and the Soviet Union combined — and yet Europeans think the CIA did it, Middle Easterners think the Jews did it, and Americans think Saddam Hussein did it.
This is the tragedy of our times: More information only seems to cause more ignorance. And, frankly, the 9/11 conspiracies are as dumb as they come. As Matt Taibbi brilliantly wrote last year:
“None of this stuff makes any sense at all. If you just need an excuse to assume authoritarian powers, why fake a plane crash in Shanksville? What the hell does that accomplish? If you’re using bombs, why fake a hijacking, why use remote-control planes? If the entire government apparatus is in on the scam, then why bother going to all this murderous trouble at all — only to go to war a year later with a country no one even bothered to falsely blame for the attacks? You won’t see any of this explored in 9/11 Truth lore, because the “conspiracy” they’re describing is impossible everywhere outside a Zucker brothers movie — unbelievably stupid in its conception, pointlessly baroque and excessive in its particulars, but flawless in its execution, with no concrete evidence left behind and tens of thousands keeping their roles a secret forever.”
That’s from the article The Hopeless Stupidity of 9/11 Conspiracies, which is like a great bulwark against the rising wave of paranoia — even if it won’t change your mind one way or the other. It’s still a spectacular read.
But that’s the mysterious thing. No matter how many respected and esteemed scientists come out and debunk the nonsense pitched forth by amateurs, nothing changes. Experts are either dismissed as being “in on it” or stupid sheeple and when arguing on the Internet, it’s the loudest people that win.
Not that the Internet is solely responsible. The fact that otherwise respectable television stations like Austria’s ORF actually broadcast shit like 9/11 Mysteries is just depressing beyond words.
That said, one of the few good things to come from all the conspiracy theories are the parodies; stuff like this page, which looks at the truth behind the Titanic, or the short film Tight Dollars.
Note: I know that most of the Slovenes are now itching to get to the comments and tell me that I’m a brainwashed sheep and that there’s proof Bush chopped down both towers with an axe made from Kennedy’s skull and femurs. But while I do love free speech, I don’t love crazy and I will prune out comments if I get the feeling that Carniola is turning into some oasis of nutters. Just sayin’ is all.
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So the swede is the first one out. Yes. Anyway, I always get the impression that there is way more Americans that believe in the conspiracies. I don’t know why and I can’t understand it I guess it’s the need to blame someone and al quadia is just not concrete enough. Dunno.
Look at the science behind the WTC collapse. Please, look at it: www.blip.tv/file/306082/
Conspiracy theories aside…. Administration did abuse nation’s rage and fears after 9/11 to justify human rights violations and war for oil. Which to me is the greatest conspiracy of them all.
gandalf: I think you’re right; I think the event was so shocking and traumatic that people went looking for a gigantic, absurdly complex theory to explain it.
Nick: I watched a bit of the video. I’ve seen many like it, and am familiar with the general talking points of the conspiracy. Still, surely one architect cannot speak on behalf of science. Many people have examined the collapse of the towers and the overwhelming consensus among serious and qualified engineers is that the conspiracy theory is bullshit.
Primvs: Bingo. I think conspiracy theories do perverse damage by drawing attention away from serious and real issues, such as the state of civil liberties in western democracies (not just in the U.S.) and other troubles of our times..
Some people just don’t want to believe anything… but maybe it’s a way for these 9/11 conspiracy nutters to pre-identify themselves as a possible future Darwin award winner!
I believe there’s no convincing some people, no matter how much science you throw at them. This is a phenomenon known as ‘true believer syndrome’. The best question to ask 9/11 conspiracy believers is, ‘What would make you stop believing in a conspiracy?’
For fun, read www.websurdity.com/2007/02/28/uncomfortable-questions-was-the-death-star-attack-an-inside-job/ or watch www.youtube.com/watch?v=55nQ00gSKC0
That websurdity thing is so funny. The worst thing for me personally with the conspiracy ppl is that whenever I check popular torrent sites documentary category half of it is things like “bildebergs controlled demolition and other truths(also, the federal reserve sucks)”. Makes me so tired..
OK, turning it the other way around, why would Osama organise such a thing? Nobody will never know the truth about the whole thing. Just like the murder of JFK, the landing on the moon, Roswell, the G8 in Genova and the list goes on. Guess everyone should just think of it as he wants. Still the american security sistem is responsible for it. With all the money invested in army and intelligence, the were not able to discover a plan made by some poor afghani goat farmers…c’mon.
I friend of mine once wisely said that he refuses to believe that 9/11 was masterminded by CIA. If that were really the fact, he argues, it means that the USA is all-powerful and there’s nothing it can’t achieve.
I fear that the truth is much more mundane than than… Like so many other tragedies this planet has witnessed, I’m almost sure that some “very bright foreign policy ideas” went disastrously wrong.
The US became tangled in a web of interdependant and mutually exclusive alliances in the Middle East, up to the point where it found itself in a lose-lose situation.
As a result, people died (and are still dying) en masse
Well, conspiranoia apart, wouldn’t be the 1st time where something mysteriously explodes and then they get on a war. Just last time it was a ship
They still are deciding if it blew from inside, or it was the lovely Spaniards, and of course each article’s outcome depends mostly on the language it’s written in.
Either way, I agree with Monsieur Peng.
I never believed the conspiracies about 911 until it was revealed that the BBC and CNN both reported the collapse of WTC 7 (The Saloman Building) about 25 minutes before it actually happened. In the case of the BBC the completely intact building was standing behind the reporter as she spoke of its demise. No explanation has ever been forthcoming. Most people in the UK to this day don’t even know that a third building collapsed on 9/11 because it was never reported in the mainstream media. Very strange and it makes me think that while the main conspiracies may not be true then the official story certainly isn’t either.
Michael,
An excellent to-the-point sprinlkled with tongue-in-cheekiness piece! The latter was especially effective and well-placed as it is difficult to have tragedy intruded by satire.
I’m still somewhat stunned that the conspiracy theories are holding any active flames. I would have thought that after 6 years folks would have realized that the entire tragedy, from all perspectives, was one of utter incompetence on a lot of people’s parts, including the hijacking Ninth Circle Ptolmeas whose Twin Tower collapsing actions surprised even ther overlords in Afghanistan.
It’ll certainly be at least 20 years, a generation, until the truth can be seperated from the rubble. And that truth will have no semblance to the conspiracies you mention. What reality are they living?
Plav Trg: a quick Wikipedia search on WTC 7 tells about how the FDNY predicted its collapse after noting bulging in the structure and fires on many different floors. They pulled out their firemen 2 hours before its collapse.
Of course, that is Wikipedia and it could all be a conspiracy itself :-p
But really, I find it hard to believe that the US would actually do that purposely. Such a big undertaking for a government that can’t handle so many tinier things…
Craig - as a general rule whenever I’m looking for facts on anything politically sensitive I NEVER go to Wikipedia. Their article on WTC 7 has done nothing to change my mind.
I’ve been debating whether I’d make a genuine response on this subject for about 30 minutes…and I guess I will. I know I won’t change anyone’s mind, but some of things I hear really get on my nerves and I think deserve a response.
For those who choose to believe the alternate theories of the WTC collapse…what makes you discount the evidence/videos that makes up the worlds current view of what happened? Does the evidence in the conspiracy view seem more plausible to you? Also I love how the conspiracy theorists pick and choose everything based on the situation. Apparently even though the administration is viewed as so incompetent and stupid…yet they can plan 4 remote-controlled planes to slam into the WTC, Pentagon, etc. and bring it down, without Congress or the general public knowing? (Honestly if you think about it, doing that with Airliners without anyone being the wiser is impossible) So which is it either the admin are geniuses or they are stupid. You can’t have both!!
In response to mAT’s question why would Osama do something like this?? Only he really knows..but that’s like asking why are people racist…or why do some “religious” people hate other religions so much. Honestly, some people just hate for no good reason.
Hmm, Osama is a poor Afghani goat farmer? The man is rich! His father was quite a wealthy man during his time, and Osama acquired some of that wealth. Also, it doesn’t cost much to find a few wackos to jack an airplane and fly it into something.
I’ll continue this in a second post because I think it’s too long to fit in one post.
Conspiracy or truth perhaps we’ll never know. The point I think we should consider is the power of hate. No matter who the real culprit is … Hate brought down the towers and put the world into all the crappy situations that exist.
The main reason this occurred was arrogance, on the part of the US govt. Twice now (at least), our country has been blindsided when their were facts on the table that something was about to happen. The first time was Pearl Harbor, then 9/11. There’s evidence some agencies had warnings ahead of time..but like many times in history many thought, oh this could never happen to us and it wasn’t taken seriously! I wouldn’t be surprised if in the next 100 years an event like this occurs again.
War for Oil: This is one subject i’m honestly sick of hearing. I’ll concede the point that had there not been oil we wouldn’t be there. BUT, if all we wanted was the oil (like so many argue), we’d just protect the oil assets and not even bother with safeguarding the rest. People might say though, hey the rest of the world would not let that happen…my response is “please, we’ve seen how many people in this world don’t really give a damn about atrocities that occur outside their own country.” Look in some history books there are tons of examples..too many to list.
And don’t bother bringing up the U.N. what a useless organization!!! Completely neutered and ineffective. When they finally move the conflict is over or everybody is dead. I find it so sad that, had we rid the world of Saddam back during the Persian Gulf War in ‘91 we wouldn’t have the situation in Iraq. Funny the one time we actually take the UN’s advice, is the one time we should have ignored them.
Pengovsky: you’re right about the foreign policy decisions. Of course it’s bad policies over the last 80 years that built up to this point. Too many times the States have used the mantra “the enemy of my enemy is my friend”.
Oh..I forgot one part the dreaded “human rights violations”, I find this topic so repugnent and I think it sums up the sad state of this world!!
Sadly I hear more media coverage, and people talking about the human rights violations of “terrorits” or “suspected terrorist” (depending on how you view it), then real travesties & real human rights violations in countries that have been going on for decades; but those only get 2 minutes of air time (if any) on the news. Sorry but I believe most of those in custody in Guantanamo/elsewhere had some part in the 9/11 plot and terrorist activities since. And anybody who can kill indiscriminately with no regard for life…isn’t a human in my view so I could care less what is done to them. That being said unfortunately there are probably some who are innocent that are in custody and their situations should be remedied.
Sorry, but I just can’t seriously consider that 11 September was all planned and executed with such success by the US government or any other body for that matter.
And - I’m sure any conspiracy theories have sources much more reliable than Wikipedia =)
(well, except for Al-qaeda of course =p but that’s entirely different)
Michael, thank you for this post. I am glad you’ve injected a theme of reason to an irrational and emotional topic. One thing that does bother me (besides the insane and insensitive conspiracy theories) is this oft repeated “war for oil” theme. Oil prices are at record highs and we are paying more for gasoline than ever before. The truth is that we aren’t taking so much as a teaspoon of the stuff from the Iraqi oil fields. If anyone thinks this mess in Iraq is a war for oil, I’d like him to explain where all that oil is going…and then he can come fill my tank with gas because we sure as hell aren’t seeing any of it.
That was 6 years ago man! Let it go already!
ofcourse it’s all about the oil. i think it was an Australian minister who accidentally admitted that they went to Iraq only for oil. You want to know where all the oil is going. well if you haven’t heard allready, we only have enough oil for the next 60-70 years (that we know of). i can only believe that the US want the primat over Oil supplies for that time. the prices will go up so fast you wouldn’t believe. so it’s not the question why they need the Oil now (because they don’t), but they will need it in 60 years and the control over the main lines will come in handy when setting the prices.
and about 9/11: i hope that the US government didn’t have anything to do with the attack. after seeing some videos i became sceptic about the truth. at the moment i don’t know who to believe because the evidence showing against the official explanation are frightening and i hope they are all made up.
Lp matia
But it was a conspiracy! A very well planned conspiracy.
Osama and his sidekicks conspired against the USA.
Or did I miss something?
plav trg:
“No explanation has ever been forthcoming”
WTF?
How about here:
www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/theeditors/2007/02/part_of_the_conspiracy.html
and then again here:
www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/theeditors/2007/03/part_of_the_conspiracy_2.html
This guy has an excellent discussion on the nutters’ Building 7 crap: www.debunking911.com/pull.htm
What pisses me off about people like plav trag believing that the wonderful people at the BBC are a bunch of genocidaires is that it takes the focus off the real culprit: Fredy Miler. Think about it.
Did he not benefit from the attacks? Really, think about it.
Has it yet been proven that he wasn’t responsible for 911? Seriously, find me one shred of evidence that suggests that he didn’t do 911.
Plus, there’s this: en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fredy_Miler
If the reference to 911 is deleted (which it will be, I predict), it’s all the more evidence for the cover-up.
I’ll be hosting a conference in Lower Manhattan next week (location to be determined). I encourage anyone who is interested in knowing the truth to show up and support the movement. I’ll have on hand plenty of copies of my “Fredy Did It” DVD, which you can have for a $100 donation.
Fight the power.
Michael N.: Just had to throw in a quick word in defence of the UN… You’ve gotta remember it’s not a World Government - it’s a forum for the countries of the world to talk to each other instead of shooting at each other. The idea is the world’s nations obey a few simple rules (don’t invade each other, basically) then we’ll avoid the worst. When a powerful enough country takes it upon itself to stop playing by the rules the system can’t function. So don’t blame the UN for being ineffective - blame the country that refuse to play by the rules and ENSURED that the UN was by default impotent.
War for oil- maby it’s a bit to simplified. But it’s oil that pays bills for rebuilding of Iraq infrastructure and buying its weapons. To companies chosen on “international” (now I’m not sure I know the correct English word for “razpis”) invitation for tenders. Which only companies from “coalition” forces could be part of. Companies suspiciously to often owned or co-owned by the likes of Dick Cheney, and other people close to the US goverment.
Oil wouldn’t be as expensive if those pesky Iraq terrorists (which weren’t a problem before the war), wouldn’t blow pipe lines every now and than and cause such an instability in one of the biggest oil producing countries.
My point is- any war is caused by someone’s interests. Be it the quest for cheap oil, repaying fund raisers and lobbyists of government, or to divert public attention from more serious issues- it doesn’t matter. It’s all shite. And 9/11 was so badly misused it makes me sick.
Michael - whoops there it is.
“Companies suspiciously to often owned or co-owned by the likes of Dick Cheney, and other people close to the US goverment.”
Primvs - you’re a fucking moron. Any proof on that about Dick Cheney? America is far more open than Slovenia on corporate disclosure.
I think he’s a scumbag, but then, Primvs, I think you’re an uneducated moron.
Primvs
Still waiting. Please provide evidence that the following enjoyed a profit from the Iraq war: “Companies suspiciously to often owned or co-owned by the likes of Dick Cheney, and other people close to the US goverment.”
Please; we need the evidence.
And Patrick, you’re a smartest best-behaved person I ever had a chance to have discussion with.
So I’m really sorry if I hurt your feelings by stating such outrageous “theories”.
It must be to many of those Michael Moore’s documentaries that washed my brain… I’m sorry. I should never have doubted the just reasons of your chief & co in Washington.
Michael, Please delete my previous “moronic” comment.
I better ask Wikipedia to delete such outrageous lies like:
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Halliburton#Ties_with_Dick_Cheney
Or tell Google not to return anything with words like “dick cheney companies iraq”. Ooops. Did I do it again?
Well, I don’t think anyone can argue that the contracts in Iraq are a model of corrupt-free business. This recent article from Rolling Stone has some pretty nauseating details about the graft and cronyism going on there. It’s a pretty disturbing read.
Primvs, you’d like to fantasize about hurting my feelings, but, really, you didn’t. You’re a joke; fairly typical of an uneducated 911 conspiracy nut. I ask you for one shred of evidence that the following companies enjoyed a profit from 911:
“Companies suspiciously to often owned or co-owned by the likes of Dick Cheney, and other people close to the US goverment.”
I ask you for that evidence, and you say the following:
1. I must support Bush, which, of course, I don’t
2. Primvs is going to take his ball and cry and go home.
Primvs, you’re not disturbing; you’re irrelevant. The disturbing thing is that the Slovene-on-the-street believes what you wrote. Such a lack of education.
Patrick, you read only what you want to read. I’m not going to argue with you anymore. If you’re as educated as you obviously think you are you’ll at least ask yourself if what you believe is absolute truth. And maby, just maby decide to have a look at articles respected newspapers wrote about this subject.
And please, in future- calling someone you don’t know an uneducated moron just because you don’t agree with him/her, is for me a clear sign of YOUR low culture.
Michael: I’ve hung out with Taibbi before; he’s a good egg. And, of course, a shitload of money is being made by war profiteers. As much as that’s inevitable in a war, it’s disgusting that there’s no focus on it.
Wow, Primvs, I ask you to back up a fairly bold statement, that the following companies are enjoying a profit from the Iraq war:
“Companies suspiciously to often owned or co-owned by the likes of Dick Cheney, and other people close to the US goverment.”
… and all you can do it point to me a wikipedia entry (below) about Cheney’s extremely disclosed, extremely transparent severance package from Halliburton, which is only tangentially related to Halliburton’s stock price.
Christ, you’re a fucking moron, Primvs. You have no evidence that Cheney companies are getting no-bid contracts out of Iraq (although you make the bold statement, although your statement, however moronic, is entirely reflective of the Slovenian street). Your best evidence is an implication that, at best, Cheney will get a little tiny bump in his severance package. The truth, you moron, is that the world is quite a bit more complicated than your uneducated and arrogant mind can comprehend. Smart people will be looking at this for years; please go away.
In recent years the company has become the center of several controversies involving the 2003 Iraq War and the company’s ties to U.S. Vice President Dick Cheney. Cheney retired from the company during the 2000 U.S. presidential election campaign with a severance package worth $34 million.[16] As of 2004, he had received $398,548 in deferred compensation from Halliburton while Vice President.[17] Concerns have been raised regarding the possible conflict of interest resulting from Cheney’s deferred compensation and stock options from Halliburton. However, before entering office in 2001, Cheney bought an insurance policy that guaranteed a fixed amount of deferred payments from Halliburton each year for five years so that the payments would not depend on the company’s fortunes.[17] He is legally bound by an agreement he signed which turns over power of attorney to a trust administrator to sell the options at some future time and to give the after-tax profits to three charities. The agreement specifies that 40% will go to the University of Wyoming (in Cheney’s home state), 40% will go to George Washington University’s medical faculty to be used for tax-exempt charitable purposes, and 20% will go to Capital Partners for Education. The agreement states that it is “irrevocable and may not be terminated, waived or amended,” preventing Cheney from taking back the options at a later date.[17]
Shit! I went to bed early last night and missed a Patrick diatribe. Never mind, I’ll get over it.
I was of course fully aware of the BBC “The Editors” blogs on WTC 7 and believe that the BBC should be thoroughly ashamed of them. That’s why I said that no explanation had been forthcoming.
But then I’m just a limey, pinko moron so what do I know?
LOL. You Americans really are a piece of something. Something dumb. No wonder 80% of you would give up your liberty for your freedom. So if the terrorists are behind attacks and their purpose is to take away your freedom, then why is your government helping them? And you love free speech but will be erasing comments? Sadly you don’t even have free speech in America anymore. More like free speech zone. Thanks god for Patriot Act and Military Commissions Act. Now you are so safe. Those who desire to give up freedom in order to gain security will not have, nor do they deserve, either one.
The only conspiracy theory is the official story, which is changing from the beggining. Even NIST rejected pancake collapse. When the next occurs you won’t have any choice to be a brainless sheep. Because that is the only right you will have left. Have a nice day.
Gee, Mike, thanks for lifting the veil. I guess as long as there are really, really, really smart people like you, there’ll be some hope for all of us.
What I like about the conspiracy movement is that it attracts only the best and brightest. People like you, Mike: respected engineers and scientists from MIT, Harvard, Yale, Oxford, and… actually, no wait. Scratch that. Its most prominent and respected members are from such centers of learning as the Claremont School of Theology. Or the English department at Berkeley. Or intellectual powerhouses like Rosie O’Donnell. Surely you guys are all on the smart side of the equation; everyone else is just dumb.
Still: Keep up the fight, Mike! Keep on edumacating the internets!!1! For the good of the world!
No need to doubt my education I am on my way to become an engineer.
Sorry if I don’t believe that the black boxes of the flights were never found though they are made to sustain pretty harsh conditions, yet a passport of the hijacker was there, only slightly burned (such intense fires could not burn a piece of paper).
Building seven collapsed in six seconds, that means not half of a second was wasted on resistance. Guess the fire does that. Here is a video of how a huge fire looks like (youtube.com/watch?v=CUjaLQDJdMc)and and what it does to a steel framed building. Guess they make buildings in Spain from some extra strong unknown to americans material. It burned all night and it was still standing in the morning. That is just magic.
The reason best researchers don’t raise their voices is probably because almost all research is founded by government so it would not be wise to raise some questions. Speaking of the money, isn’t it funny that more money was spent investigating Clinton than investigating the 9-11 attacks.
Guess it’s more important to find out where a cigar has been than why 3000 people lost their lives.
I just want to ask you, don’t you find it just a little bit weird that four planes are allowed to fly for almost an hour in opposite directions though they are clear procedures of what needs to be done in such events?
Even so today 6 years later, firefighters are dying from all the asbestos that was in the air following the attacks even your so trusted government assured everybody that the air was not contaminated. Too bad they can’t blame Bin Laden for that one.
I am not saying you should take stance with 9/11 conspiracies, but there are just some questions that you should ask yourself. The said part is that people tend to do that when it directly hits them. Maybe americans will start asking questions when they will have to pay of the debt the war in Iraq has produced. The war which was started because Iraq had WMD. Oh wait, it didn’t. So they lied again. I remember how ridiculed the people who didn’t believe that Iraq had WMD were back then.
So ask yourself some questions or just tune into FOX news, because I hear there is a war with Iran to be won.
Have a nice day.
Good post Mike. There are so many unanswered legitimate questions about 911 that I am automatically suspicious of anyone who claims to know the truth.
And I reluctantly have to say that I am very disappointed that this, my favourite blog, has taken a stance of official version = sane, anything else = moronic.
I know this is a very emotive subject and I’d love to believe that there is nothing suspicious about it, but reason and evidence suggest otherwise.
Anonymous - please note that Michael Manske didn’t call anyone a moron. Not his style. I did, because that’s kinda what I do around here.
You really have to understand that Michael is going through something significant in Slovenia. He encounters someone, makes friends, sees that person another time, sees that person a week later, and then that person says the stupidest most goddamnawful bizarre ignorant thing that Michael’s ever heard, that the U.S. government was involved in 911. And that person does it in an accusatory way. It’s an entirely different experience than the Americans who believe that Saddam Hussein did 911; Michael has encountered them, but he has been able to dismiss them from the get-go.
Before 911, I never had any reason or evidence to believe that America was superior to Europe or anyone else. But, this bizarre crap has made me feel quite happy for living in the community where I live. You must understand - in the U.S., you really have to seek out these people. I recently started getting into the work of the Democratic party. I did know, inevitably, that I would run into a few of such freaks. The frequency of it was fairly predictable. And it happened of course. It brought about some of the most hilarious moments of my life, with someone accusing me of being part of the conspiracy and another guy stomping off while screaming, really screaming “I’M A CRITICAL THINKER.”
Not much critical thinking there, when you consider the common thread of these people - they’re never concerned with challenging thoughts. They’re never concerned with alternative explanations. They’re never concerned with things like physical science and architecture and reasonability and rationality. They’re only concerned with their very superior herd-mentality thoughts, and there’s really no saving them. In relation to the bizarre Americans who somehow believed that Hussein was responsible for 911, they are the flip side of the same coin.
I encourage anyone that believes in the conspiracies to give some thought to the people who debunk this dumbass shit. For instance, you can go to:
www.debunking911.com
Good blog for the ongoing insanity: screwloosechange.blogspot.com
www.loosechangeguide.com/LooseChangeGuide.html
911 Mike - as to the fire in Spain, please take a look (you won’t) at www.debunking911.com/madrid.htm
911 Mike, I FUCKING DARE you to write a critique of that page and submit it to one of your professors. Really, do a little extra credit. And please send it to us. I want to know, from an engineering student’s perspective, why the fire at Windsor Tower proves anything about the WTC. Please include all of the not-so-subtle differences, like the different designs, the impact of the planes on the insulation at the WTC, all of the jet fuel that spilled into the WTC, etc. Come on, you think you’re brilliant (as you all do) - you can do it, just 1000 words. As I said, I’d love to see it.
You won’t do that simple assignment, 911 Mike, because you’re a weasel.
In terms of your life, 911 Mike, I don’t think it ends well. You call yourself an engineering student, yet you don’t know that a fire in one building can reach a different degree of Celsius than a fire in a different building. Really, that’s an absolute, you … um … fucking moron. Good luck with the rest of your life. In the end, you’re continuing down a path of self-disenfranchisement that is only going to result in you feeling more isolated, more passed over, more likely to believe fantasies and join up with other people who believe in fantasies so you can feel like you belong to a movement. You’re an easily manipulated person whose opinion counts as much as a dumbass in Alabama who thinks that “generally brown” people were responsible for 911.
911 Mike, if you’re wondering whether you’re stupid, let me point out your stupidity. Regarding the various issue of free speech, you write,
“And you love free speech but will be erasing comments? Sadly you don’t even have free speech in America anymore. More like free speech zone.”
You confuse free speech. You don’t get it. That’s obvious to other people, but not to you, as you’re a fucking moron.
And then: “The reason best researchers don’t raise their voices is probably because almost all research is founded by government so it would not be wise to raise some questions.”
That is the stupidest fucking thing I’ve ever heard in my life - 100,000 of the best academics in the world being controlled by federal funds. Mike, you stupid fucking moron. I hope you don’t vote.
Really, that’s an absolute, you … um … fucking moron.
That’s obvious to other people, but not to you, as you’re a fucking moron.
Some great arguments there Patrick. I won’t even bother to explain anything to you, but I bet you had at least an hour of physics in your life, so I would just like to ask you how long does it take for a stone to free fall from a 48 story building, and how long building 7 took to collapse?
Also why did the WTC 5 and WTC 6 still stand (they were demolished 6 months later) though all of the WTC 1 & 2 fell on them? They really took all the impact?
And you didn’t even bother answering one question from the previous post.
And best academics, where do they work Patrick? NASA, Purdue university, Indiana university, etc. You do realize these institutions are getting their money from federal funds?
Anyway, as you are so sure there is nothing suspicious that happened on that day, you have a lot less rights than you had before 9/11, country is less safe then before 9/11, oil is 5 times more expensive (thats good for the oil companies, same supply same demands same cost of production than before 9/11 only the retail price is 5 times higher - you saw the results of major oil companies lately, they are doing really great), and public debt is through the roof. Maybe when you will have to take a credit or if you have to pay one off you will see the increasing costs and then you will realize who pays for this war games.
Bye
“And I reluctantly have to say that I am very disappointed that this, my favourite blog, has taken a stance of official version = sane, anything else = moronic.”
Yes, I agree, it is sort of sad.
At the beginning you said, Michael that you’ll be very strict against anyone spreading nonsense about 9/11 events, well, since it’s your blog you can do anything you want,
but I can’t understand that abusive guys like Patrick don’t bother you at all,
it can’t be just because he’s on the same side as you are as far as 9/11 is concerned, can it.
I mean, you think it’s OK to call people uneducated, stupid, fucking morons, just because you can’t beat them with arguments, or you don’t agree with them.
I don’t like cencorship of any kind, it’s not that, ppl like Patrick reveal a lot about themselves very clearly by speaking the way they do
what I wanted to say is, if you announce to be strict in this debate (OK you were cynical too) why not be so to both teams, not just the one who is on your side.
By reading your blog I got the impression that you’re a kind, friendly, smart person with a great sense of humor, but I guess there are certain topics you feel very strong about and are prepared to defend your views on them ferociously.
I just don’t understand, if someone says something you consider stupid, for example if someone would be claiming very solemnly that the earth is of course flat,
I don’t understand the need of shouting at them: stupid fucking moron,
why not say to them, for example, well I don’t agree with you, I think what’re saying is not true because of this and this and that, but, hey let’s place our beliefs and proofs on the table, and then we’ll see.
Well I guess I’m just saying why can’t people be kinder to each other, which puts me on the shelf labeld: dreamers, people are sometimes kind and sometimes are not
Ups, sorry, I drifted way off the topic
“Sorry if I don’t believe that the black boxes of the flights were never found though they are made to sustain pretty harsh conditions, yet a passport of the hijacker was there, only slightly burned (such intense fires could not burn a piece of paper).”
@Mike: That’s some shoddy deduction there. How do you explain some air disasters where a plane crashes and out of 200-300 passengers 1 or 2 people survive? By your line of thinking above that wouldn’t be possible but it happens/has happened.
Also the Black Boxes are rated to survive for so long (1 hour at certain temps) in a fire they weren’t intended to last forever. By the 1 hour mark usually the fire would be out…but how long was that area of the WTC burning for before they put it out??? They aren’t expected to last in a fire forever. Not to mention what 20+ floors above pancaking the whole area. Also Black Boxes are located in the tail section…so as the plane is being crushed/slowed down by the building it’s forcing everything aft of the wings (boxes) forward…right into the middle of the tanks. As for the passport…who knows exactly where the terrorist was located…when the plane hits at those speeds it’s breaks up almost instantly…so the guy might have been ejected to a point where the fire wasn’t as intense…who knows though. If the building hadn’t collapsed you might have been able to recreate on computer how it might have happened had you known that persons location on the plane at the time of impact and exactly how the plane hit.
One other not about the passport…if you have ever burned a bunch of papers that are togther…it doesn’t always burn completely. Sometimes the middle stays unburned even though all you can see around it is ash…usually you have to mix the fire with a poker to get everything to burn completely…perhaps something similar to this phenomenon occured.
@aja: In Michael M’s defense it seems he hasn’t deleted any comments up to this point; by his description I would think some of the posts on here would definately be fitting w/ his criteria for removal..so since they are still visible, I’m assuming he hasn’t removed any. There’s always the possibility Michael isn’t checking up on this particular post anymore, as well.
Hmm some weird editing quirks not sure why that html link popped up. By the way this part “One other not about the passport…” should read as “Another thing about the passport comment…” guess I was typing to fast.
I was not really attacking Michael, I guess I was just a bit taken aback by his strong aversion to conspiracy theories, (maybe, partly it was my fault for taking things too seriously and not detecting all the irony that was there, it was there, right, I hope so)
of course there’s nothing wrong if someone ridicules them, but ppl have a right to express doubts, if the information they come across is somehow inconsistent, that doesn’t make them automatically crazy nutters
Hey. Thanks for the reply and for not deleting the comments :).
About the survivors on the plane. Well, some survive, but the bodies are usually always found. Every single one of them. Even when the plane crashes into mountain of into an ocean, they eventually found every piece of it, they now where it fits and they put together an entire plane so they can see what happened. Too bad they didn’t do the same thing with steel columns which would show us how the building collapsed. Yet they shipped them to be melt and reused very fast. Now again I really can’t understand the fires so hot and intense they could not burn a single passport. And among all the rubble only this passport is found.
Another interesting point is when you said for how long the fires burned. The satellite temperature picture from NASA of ground zero shows that temperatures exceeded 2000 degrees, yet the fuel never burns at more than 900 degrees. What 9/11 commission book never mentions is that molten steel that was everywhere. Sure fuel fire can weaken it, but it can’t never melt it.
Anyway, I know this is thin ice to walk upon, but hey at least we are talking now.
Another interesting thing I saw today a segment on CNN (www.cnn.com/video/#/video/us/2007/09/12/king.mystery.plane.CNN) . Guess there are even more strange things happening on that day.
And another thing. If you check FBIs most wanted list, under Bin Laden there is nothing mentioned that he is wanted for 9/11. When journalist asked FBI that question she got a response that there was not enough evidence to charge him with that.
Well I won’t be posting so much as these past two days because I am over exams now (I comment on blogs when I have to study) :).
Take care.
Hey. Thanks for the reply and for not deleting the comments :).
^ This comment was on the same line so I figured both were to me. I’m a different Michael then the blog host. Different last initial.
Well, not every piece is always found…especially in crashes into the ocean. Sometimes Black Boxes haven’t been found. My point with the fire was…even if the Box had been found the contents inside would have been destroyed. Most of the Black Box contents are electronic boards which don’t survive well in high heat. The fire if I’m not mistaken burned for several days so the insides were probably cooked…not sure about the outer shell but I assume the fire could have burned away the orange color and this might have led to them missing it..but that’s pure speculation on my part.
The passport part…there is a possibility it was some of the debris that was shot out the opposite site of the tower when the plane hit. You do see in the video of the aftermath lots of paper debris falling down into the streets. There might have also been a lack of oxygen at the point where the passport fell.
I’m sure there were more personal effects found, but I doubt the authorities are going to let everybody know what is found. Since they like to keep that stuff private for the victims families.
If your passport comment about being the only one found was meant why weren’t more passports found? You have to remember most domestic US flights which these were…people aren’t using passports to board they use some other form of picture ID. So most passengers most likely weren’t carrying a passport on the aircraft.
Just to clarify things before I go to bed: Mike, Michael N., and Michael M. are different people. And, no, I haven’t erased any comments yet.
“And best academics, where do they work Patrick? NASA, Purdue university, Indiana university, etc. You do realize these institutions are getting their money from federal funds?”
Go Hoosiers! Congrats, moron, you’re the first person in the history of blogs to identify the great state of Indiana as the center of learning in the Western world. Perhaps, with their new-found status, you can get them to observe daylight savings time!
911 Mike, you’re a fucking moron.