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I’m off to the Adriatic for a few days, followed by a visit to Berlin for a few days. Back soon.
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Sretan Put!
Say Hi to Germany … and have a good time!
Say hello to Berlin
… and enjoy yourselves…
Take me with you!!
Enjoy your vacation, Michael! In a follow- up to your Michael Moore story, his movie can be watched entirely at this url :
video.google.com/videoplay?docid=9006414844032752909
Might give us something to talk about while you’re having your r & r…
@ARF That link is already gone, got another? Pretty please.
I’ll see if I can come up with another one, Eva…
I tried finding a new link, but it seems it’s been taken off (the U.S. government apparently tried to seize the copy he brought with him to Cannes; could this have been done at their insistence?) and can only be found at p2p and torrent sites; sorry…
Or maybe it’s because of copyright issues. that’s usually why films get taken of google/youtube…
In most cases, yes. But Michael Moore - whether you love or loathe him - gives me the impression that he doesn’t care about such things. For an entire film to be available in its original quality, you’d have to suspect at least someone close to it must have leaked it onto the Net…
probably. might even be him, but still, his money comes from somewhere and I bet there are people working full time with finding leaked movies..
@ARF - The U.S. government did NOT try to seize a copy; the Treasury Department opened an investigation regarding a potential violation of the trade embargo. Btw, they always do that, and it would be quite silly for them not to do so with Michael Moore. The producers of the film kept a copy of the film out of the country AS A PUBLICITY STUNT. Wow, ARF, consider yourself manipulated.
Moreover, you thinking that Michael Moore does not have a profit motive is quite silly. Otherwise, he’d release the video for free.
I don’t think you quite understand what a firestorm would erupt if the U.S. government intervened to prevent political speech. I just don’t think you get it.
Patrick,
Would you care to go away and think about your last para. Or, better still, just go away.
As usual, you do have a case (sort of) but then ruin it with an aggressive, patronising and insulting style. It just doesn’t work in winning arguments and influencing people. Not on this side of the Atlantic anyway. I just don’t think you get it.
So, Patrick calls a spade a spade - what’s wrong with that?
Nothing wrong with calling a spade a spade. It’s when you start swinging the spade at people’s heads that there’s a problem.
patrick.
Profit motive. ofc there is one, it might not be as much for him as a person as it is for the company that backs him.
second,
when it comes to ignorance, the states are world leading. ofc not the whole population, but the atmosphere in general. I don’t think that the bush regim needs to censor things, I’m quite sure media handles that internaly as they do in most other parlamental democracies..
ahja. I don’t want this to turn nasty in poor mr manskes comments. so feel free to ignore it, cuz thats what i’ll do with any responses. Don’t have the time for this.
Mithrandir, your mind has been clouded by Michael Moores’ spell. Avast! ye demons of stupidity!
it was clouded long before before Moore and Klein entered the stage of politics.. anyway, for Moore fans, his best production to this day remains the tv-series that i forgot what it’s called.
ps.
I was acctually named gandalf by my parents..
Yes, I was harsh, but really not that harsh, given ARF’s level of arrogance and his implied insult. Plus, since this is quite a popular blog, I just knew that, as a result of his comment, if I didn’t speak up, I would be in a bar in LJ in the near future and someone would say something close to the following to me:
“I heard that your government tried to seize Michael Moore’s new film. It is now your duty to explain this to me.”
plavtrg – I’m quite curious. You criticized my last paragraph, when I suggested that someone who thinks that the U.S. government would swoop in and put a stop to political speech really doesn’t understand how the U.S. works (nor, I might add, cares to find out).
Do you know something I don’t know? Do I need to worry?
Patrick - sorry, I couldn’t find any evidence of arrogance or insult in ARF’s comments.
Since you obviously can’t draw realistic conclusions from 15 lines of text then this may cast doubt on your ability to analyse the greater world stage.
I really can’t be bothered to respond further though so just put it down as another victory for you.
patrick, while you are at it, defending the states, what’s that I’m hearing about an outlawed videogame??
just kidding. don’t bother responding. I’m stupid and provocative…
A videogame (Manhunt 2) was outlawed in UK. So much for the proverbial knowledge of geography… Go Patrick, go!
I think saying the game is outlawed in the UK is a bit harsh; it isn’t actually. It just hasn’t been awarded a rating, which means it can’t be sold in UK shops. But you’re still allowed to have it all you want: that is, possession is not an offence, and you can easily buy the game from abroad if you wish to play it.
In any case, I can understand the reason behind this non-classification. The game is way too cruel and cruelty seems to me to be its only ‘feature’. Limiting its availability in this manner, when it is still possible to obtain it even if somewhat more difficult, is an action I can easily subscribe to.
Also, I don’t get it why everyone is so upset about this. It isn’t that big a deal. The classification agency just did what an Act of Parliament from the 80s stipulated: and while you may not agree with the reasoning behind the legislation, there definitely are arguments for it and dismissing them offhand, like many many people - not referring to this site specifically, mind - seem to do, isn’t all that constructive. I don’t want to discuss the philosophical implications here however, since, as you will have noticed, I already write way too verbosely and last time I wrote a philosophy essay (under exam conditions no less) it was over 17 pages long … concision just isn’t one of my most stellar qualities!
To sum up: to me, this doesn’t look like censorship or a power trip or anything like that. I don’t see what exactly the problem that people appear to have with the BBFC is, and I’d be glad if someone could explain it. Unfortunately in most other places on the net where I’ve read about this, people tend to say ‘OMG they banned it’ (usually coupled with a plethora of exclamation marks for effect) and think that this somehow proves their argument or that their argument is in some way intuitive or self-evident when it clearly isn’t.
same thing happened to the same game in the states..
@gandalf: Not exactly the same. The US govt. hasn’t said anything about the game. The developer has suspended the release due to the fact that the game currently has an Adults only rating. This would significantly hamper sales. So right now they are pulling it…perhaps to rework the game to get a more lenient rating (17 +).
plavtrg:
What makes your comment up above so offensive, so uneducated and so arrogant is that you don’t really get the fact that Americans enjoy far more freedom of expression than any other people in the world.
We let Nazis march in Jewish neighborhoods. We let the KKK (what little is left of them) march in college towns. You try to scatter your Neo-Nazis with laws, which only results in skinheads beating up black people in the center of Ljubljana, as I saw my friends being pummeled by skinheads under the watchful eye of your bronzed greatest architect and about fifty people who couldn’t care less that a bunch of black people were being pummeled by skinheads.
But at least we have America. I’m a First Amendment lawyer, and, plavtrg, you’re an idiot - you’re a typical European who’s not allowed to hate Jews anymore so you hate Americans.
plavtrg, I’m sure that your university education has failed you, as I’ve seen the dumbfounded curricula of Slovene higher education. I would encourage you to visit a bookstore, but, unfortunately, you don’t really have bookstores in Slovenia on the massive American scale.
plavtrg, you speak well for many Slovenes, and - with so many meaningful exceptions - you’re all a bunch of bizarrely anti-American uneducated assholes.
@Patrick: What are you getting so pissed about? Hmm, have you been to every country in the world to compare to the US to see that your statement is true?? I would say the US had more freedom of expression in the past then it does today.
Hmm, if that stuff happened in LJ I would say it’s a result of lax police and not because of freedom of expression…btw you don’t think people anywhere here in the USA get the shit beat out of them because of the way they look?
By the way I find it funny here in the USA we can let all those things go yet people get their panties in a wad over seeing a tit on TV or hearing a swear word. Geez.
And your comments are laughable about the education system in Slovenia. Yeah like the US one is so much better!! At least the one in Slovenia hasn’t become just a money making institution like so many US colleges. And I doubt they are pumping out as many dumbasses either.
I’m not disagreeing with you totally Patrick, I’m just saying don’t put the USA on a pedestal…because this country has slowly been falling over the last decade…and I’m not saying that because of Iraq or Bush. I’m saying that mainly because of the intelligence of the general populace here.
Micheal Moore had two T.V. series, 1. ‘T.V. Nation’, on Fox and, 2. on Bravo, ‘The Awful Truth’ Never got to see ‘The Awful Truth’ as I refuse to pay for cable, trivial expense, the money is better spent on food, or bills and the time better spent on work or rest.
‘T.V. Nation’ was wickedly funny though.
Patrick - If I’ve offended you with my uneducated arrogance then … good. At least I haven’t completely wasted my time.
PS I’m still English by the way.
Katja - I was quite upset that “TV Nation” got pulled - such a brilliant Sunday night!
Plavtrg - you threw me a bit with your handle; sorry to insult the Slovenes by suggesting that you’re Slovene.
This is you:
1. I’m a pathetic whiny Brit.
2. I issue drive-by insults to Americans, without caring about the facts.
3. I scamper off, convinced that I accomplished something.
If I were in Prague tomorrow, it would take me about 15 minutes to find an empire-envious Brit at the end of a bar telling me how stupid I am because I’m American blah blah blah.
As such, you’re not really shattering any cultural stereotypes.
Michael N, I appreciate the consideration.
* Patrick: What are you getting so pissed about? Hmm, have you been to every country in the world to compare to the US to see that your statement is true?? I would say the US had more freedom of expression in the past then it does today.
1. I get pissed about ignorance. The world could be better.
2. Yes, lived in Belgium, the Netherlands and Slovenia. I don’t remotely understand why you think First Amendment law is regressive - read the cases, study up on the issue - America (like most of the world) is progressive on free expression.
* Hmm, if that stuff happened in LJ I would say it’s a result of lax police and not because of freedom of expression…btw you don’t think people anywhere here in the USA get the shit beat out of them because of the way they look?
1. Arguing that the police in LJ are lax is silly … are you suggesting that there should be a greater police presence in LJ?
2. Yes, bad things happen to people all over the world, quite often based on race, but I’ve only seen skinhead abuse in Ljubljana. And - you know this - if that happened in Topeka, it would be a shitstorm.
* By the way I find it funny here in the USA we can let all those things go yet people get their panties in a wad over seeing a tit on TV or hearing a swear word. Geez.
- Good point. Completely agreed. We let all sorts of violence go over the airwaves, but we get in a tizzy when tits are on display. More tits and more curse words is what I say. And a little less violence please.
* And your comments are laughable about the education system in Slovenia. Yeah like the US one is so much better!! At least the one in Slovenia hasn’t become just a money making institution like so many US colleges. And I doubt they are pumping out as many dumbasses either.
1. U.S. higher education is so much better. All that money in the U.S. doesn’t simply go into the coffers of some cabalistic illuminati. Go ask a hard science PhD student in Ljubljana about her facilities. It’s laughable. Conversely, the U.S. is mecca for science and all sorts of other disciplines.
2. What dumbasses? I went to an OK public school for university, and then an excellent law school. American students are extremely impressive, and this is recognized by all sorts of international students.
3. Please don’t tell me you buy in to the bizarre freaky Slovene myth about the Slovene foreign exchange student who is average in Slovenia but turns out to be a whiz kid in America. It’s on par with not-covering-your-feet-will-give-you-pneumonia, the myth of the inversion layer in Ljubljana (it will keep you sick, and there’s nothing you can do about it), and bee products will cure you of the common cold.
* I’m not disagreeing with you totally Patrick, I’m just saying don’t put the USA on a pedestal…because this country has slowly been falling over the last decade…and I’m not saying that because of Iraq or Bush. I’m saying that mainly because of the intelligence of the general populace here.
- I don’t remotely put the U.S. on a pedestal. And how silly you are to think that a general populace can precipitously lose intelligence.
@Patrick: I never said First Amendment law is regressive. Quite the contrary, the laws seem fine in my opinion..it’s the fact that most seem to not be followed. Look at the Political Correctness here. That smacks in the face of freedom of expression. My point was even though we do have the right laws on the books, it’s not always followed. That’s a problem!
Just because police might be lax doesn’t automatically mean you need more. How about just having the ones they have doing their job. One thing they obviously don’t do is give many parking tickets in LJ. I remember last summer being at the movie theatre and seeing about 20 cars parked on the sidewalks when there was plenty of space in the parking garage. None of them had tickets on their car after 3 hours like that. If that’s a reflection of their police force, well I guess they aren’t doing that well in the other departments either.
Well I think you are being a little naive about it not happening in the USA. But who knows…by the way it might be a shitstorm if people actually find out about it but lately the national media here seems more focused on worthless celebs and their sad lives then on real news.
Well I should hope our facilities are better, just due to the sheer amount of dollars thrown into our Universities. If we didn’t have top notch facilites I would ask where the hell is all the money going. Though a nice facility doesn’t equate to a good education. I could keep going on about education but I’ll keep it short. My main problem is the amount of Univerity undergrads who don’t know “jack” when it comes to basic common knowledge that every 8th grader should know. Yes American students might be great at their specific area of study, but are sorely lacking in other more common areas. As for the dumbasses…I’ve run into quite a few people who’ve had an Undergrad degree, and after speaking with them have wondered how the heck they ever managed to graduate.
And to your last comment I would say who’s the one being silly. I’d say people who don’t believe it could ever happen are the silly ones. I’m not saying people who already have intelligence are going to have it suddenly seep out of their head. It’s more like as the older generations age and die off the newer ones aren’t taking their education as seriously and aren’t doing as well as a whole, thus making the entire populace as a whole less intelligent. And that’s my viewpoint of a lot of the young kids these days in the USA, a bunch of spoiled, lazy, arrogant little dingleberry’s.
@Patrick: I missed this on the first go around.
There is quite a bit of ignorance in this world…a lot in our own country as well. I tend to give foreigners a bit of a break though, since some foreign media outlets have an agenda to push. So if people want a real non-biased view of the world they have to go to other sources.
Hmm I didn’t realize Belgium, Netherlands and Slovenia equated to “every country in the world”. lol
Sorry I just get a little irritated with the “were the best (or No 1) lines”. I mean do you have a poll or something to back that claim up. By the way if I remember correctly someone bought an island off the UK a while back former military base I think, and it was being touted as it’s own little country with a population of 1. I guess that “technically” would make that little island country enjoy far more freedom of expression than any other country in the world since the person who owns it is numero uno!
Oh one last thing…here’s an article that just proves to show that just because you’re educated does not mean you can’t be a dumbass idiot as well.
Enjoy
news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20070625/ap_on_re_us/67_million_pants
#Michael N.
- You totally freak me out about the youth of America. But, not as you intended …
* Quite the contrary, the laws seem fine in my opinion.
- They’re not laws; their cases. And you haven’t read them.
* Look at the Political Correctness here.
1. The issue of “political correctness” was ambiguous at best in 1992. Nowadays, it’s a worn-out catchphrase that means nothing and has never met anything for the people that use it or the people that hear it.
2. At least an anecdote?
3. It’s not capitalized.
4. It has nothing to do with the government holding a gun to your head and saying “you can’t say this” or “you can’t do this.” If you’re wondering when and if a government will hold a gun to your head and tell you whether you’re allowed to express yourself, please see the comments of Alex above.
* Parking in LJ
Dude, don’t even …
* Well I think you are being a little naive about it not happening in the USA. But who knows…by the way it might be a shitstorm if people actually find out about it but lately the national media here seems more focused on worthless celebs and their sad lives then on real news.
- Entirely separate issue. It’s not simply America that’s entirely focused on celebrity - it’s the world. All sorts of people in Hong Kong and Slovenia were waiting for Paris to get out of jail.
* Though a nice facility doesn’t equate to a good education.
- Actually, yes, for university R&D, for the students and the faculty, it really does.
* I could keep going on about education but I’ll keep it short. My main problem is the amount of Univerity undergrads who don’t know “jack” when it comes to basic common knowledge that every 8th grader should know. Yes American students might be great at their specific area of study, but are sorely lacking in other more common areas. As for the dumbasses…I’ve run into quite a few people who’ve had an Undergrad degree, and after speaking with them have wondered how the heck they ever managed to graduate.
1. At least an anecdote?
2. Web 2.0
*And that’s my viewpoint of a lot of the young kids these days in the USA, a bunch of spoiled, lazy, arrogant little dingleberry’s.
- “Kids these days” … you actually wrote that … you actually pulled that card.
* Sorry I just get a little irritated with the “were the best (or No 1) lines”. I mean do you have a poll or something to back that claim up.
- I absolutely don’t believe that the U.S. is “the best” or “No. 1″; I actually prefer Europe. But the thread started here with morons who believe in the European myth of America.
* By the way if I remember correctly someone bought an island off the UK a while back former military base I think, and it was being touted as it’s own little country with a population of 1. I guess that “technically” would make that little island country enjoy far more freedom of expression than any other country in the world since the person who owns it is numero uno!
- Please move there. You’ll be exactly the second most intelligent person there.
@Patrick: Hmm this is the kind of stuff that ticks me off….
* Quite the contrary, the laws seem fine in my opinion.
- They’re not laws; their cases. And you haven’t read them.
Ahh look in your original response to me “I don’t remotely understand why you think First Amendment law is regressive” ” as I saw my friends being pummeled by skinheads under the watchful eye of your bronzed greatest architect and about fifty people who couldn’t care less that a bunch of black people were being pummeled by skinheads.” it sure sounds like you sat by and watched as well, so I guess that makes you no better then the 50 people. I guess you “caring” amounts to some difference in your mind? If you did join in to defend your friends, disregard this comment.
Had to repost my message was too long
@Patrick: Hmm this is the kind of stuff that ticks me off….
* Quite the contrary, the laws seem fine in my opinion.
- They’re not laws; their cases. And you haven’t read them.
Ahh look in your original response to me “I don’t remotely understand why you think First Amendment law is regressive”
@Patrick: Hmm this is the kind of stuff that ticks me off….
* Quite the contrary, the laws seem fine in my opinion.
- They’re not laws; their cases. And you haven’t read them.
Ahh look in your original response to me “I don’t remotely understand why you think First Amendment law is regressive” You brought it up that it was “law”. (And I was mainly referring to the First Amendment since that’s what I thought you were talking about.)
Political correctness:
1. Maybe this isn’t a good example for “PC” but how about people wanting to pray during graduation. Not that I’m an advocate for that topic or anything, but it did come up a lot in the late 90’s. I don’t see the big deal, those who want to pray can pray, those who don’t want to don’t have to. Please don’t bring up the whole separation of church and state that most try to argue with this situation. It’s not like the US is blessing a certain religion over another. You might argue it’s not exactly a “PC” issue…but the fact that some people try to placate others by not allowing a person to say a prayer aloud is a form of PC, IMO.
Yes, like you said it’s not like anyone is going to put a gun to someone’s head who doesn’t want to pray. Why you brought up that “gun” statement…I’ll never know. I never hinted that I thought anything close to that concept.
3. It’s not capitalized.
Hmm, so now you’re just being a wise guy. Well, first off I had abbreviated it as “PC” but then I wrote it out fully for others who might not understand the abbreviation. I forgot to change the first letters to lower case. I apologize if I offended your literary sense! By the way next time you choose to do something like that make sure you bother to spell check the sentence 2 sentences above your statement. It’s “meant” not “met”!
Parking in LJ:
Sorry to bring it up…I was just responding to your suggestion that my statement had to mean more police. I thought it was a good example of police needing to possibly do their job better (if that’s the reason why it continues to happen), but I don’t know the whole situation there.
- Entirely separate issue. It’s not simply America that’s entirely focused on celebrity - it’s the world. All sorts of people in Hong Kong and Slovenia were waiting for Paris to get out of jail.
Never said it was only US. Just making a passing comment on how pathetic the media is today!
- Actually, yes, for university R&D, for the students and the faculty, it really does.
Sorry didn’t put “always” in there. Yes, yes of course there will always be a few areas that money does make a big difference. But correct me if I’m wrong we were talking about University in general not specific fields.
Yes I have plenty of anecdotes for the school issue. I’ve run into plenty of grads who don’t know basic history (i.e. when the civil war occurred, the year of our countries founding). Or basic astronomy…how many planets are in the solar system, etc, etc. Hmm, that our form of government is a Republic not a Democracy like so many people who mislabel it. That and the fact that some don’t even know who our heads of state are. I won’t even go into geography…and I’m not talking about World geography.
- “Kids these days” … you actually wrote that … you actually pulled that card.
Sorry to pull that old card but after talking with some people younger than me I’m amazed at how little they know. It’s a sad statement of our public education system.
Didn’t mean to insinuate you thought the U.S. is “the best” in every single category or overall. I just meant in areas like education and personal freedoms. Statements like “Americans enjoy far more freedom of expression than any other people in the world” are at best educated guesses. I haven’t seen any studies lately ranking countries by freedom so your statement may or may not be true.
Like I said originally I don’t disagree with everything you said. I know a lot of people in Europe do have a distorted view of America but the same can be said of Americans views of Europe. The whole game issue as well, I doubt I’ll ever see a game actually get banned in the USA…and if it does it’ll be a sad day I think.
I think you’d have a lot easier time convincing others of your view point though if you didn’t resort to bashing other people and name-calling. Something can be said of people who resort to name-calling when they can’t think of anything else better to say. I mean making assumptions like “you’re a typical European who’s not allowed to hate Jews anymore so you hate Americans.” and “you’re all a bunch of bizarrely anti-American uneducated assholes” (to name a few) are totally uncalled for and just downright rude, and I think it says something about your character, and you seem to be no better than the people you accuse who did nothing when your friends were getting beaten up.
Finally, I was going to let this slide earlier but since IMO you seem to be somewhat of a hypocrite. In this sentence ” as I saw my friends being pummeled by skinheads under the watchful eye of your bronzed greatest architect and about fifty people who couldn’t care less that a bunch of black people were being pummeled by skinheads.” it sure sounds like you sat by and watched as well, so I guess that makes you no better then the 50 people. I guess you “caring” amounts to some difference in your mind? If you did join in to defend your friends, disregard this comment.
short post = long discussion?? is there no Ex-pat forum for slovenia? there should be one..