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“If you’re not good, we’ll give you to the Slovenes.” (Famous poster)
A lot of people have been sending me stories about the recent uproar over an evicted Gypsy family in Ambrus and wondering why I haven’t been mentioning it. After all it’s a big, big story; virtually every major news outlet abroad has written about it at this point, with Nicholas Wood of The New York Times leading the charge. (1, 2) (alternate links: 1, 2)
The first reason I’ve been avoiding it is because it’s so goddamn depressing and continues to get even more goddamn depressing with each passing day. The second is that there is so much to say that I don’t think I can manage to put everything together coherently. But I can try.
For those of you not familiar with the background here’s a quick summary: After years of tension, an angry mob in Ambrus tries to force a 30-member family of Gypsies out of their town. Fearing bloodshed, the government steps in and evacuates the Gypsies (mostly kids) to a run-down building in Postojna as a “temporary solution.” The interior minister unwittingly echoes Heinrich Himmler, by suggesting the Gypsies will be transported to some isolated place “in the woods” but with “access to a road” where they can carry on with their lifestyle unhindered. And, of course, this being Slovenia — where problems are never solved quickly but rather left to metastasize into far bigger problems — things have been going downhill ever since.
The EU promptly chided Slovenia, as did Amnesty International. The Left staged some protests. And the government was left playing a game of hot potato, where every community they suggested as a new home went berserk at the news. I mean, people were literally setting up barricades and taking to the streets at the mere mention of Gypsies coming to their neighborhood, and I’m not talking about remote villages: one possibility (dropped after two days of protests) was a suburb of cosmopolitan Ljubljana.
And so the government is now stuck, like the infamous New York garbage barge Mobro 4000, hoping against hope that someone will take their unwanted cargo, and refusing to recognize that there are no friendly ports in this vast ocean of NIMBYs. The saddest part is that I suspect they’d have an easier time getting Slovenes to accept a landfill near their house than a family of Roma.
That said, I don’t think the government is to blame for this. They’ve taken a lot of criticism, but they were forced to play their hand and their possibilities were limited from the start. The majority of the blame, I think, belongs squarely with the police. People like Slovenia’s ombudsman decry the fact that a mob in Ambrus took justice into its own hands, but don’t follow this to its logical conclusion: The mob took justice into its own hands because no one was holding it in the first place. When a gang of people want to use violence to solve problems, the police need to step in and, to quote Pengovsky and former chief of police Pavle ÄŒelik, “kick ass.” The police didn’t. As a matter of fact, their refusal to dispense ass-kickings is what helped Ambrus reach boiling point in the first place. There has been, by all accounts, tension brewing there for years. If some Gypsies were harassing people, the police should have been there to step in. If people were harassing Gypsies, the police should have been there to step in. Instead, the police let everyone take care of themselves and (surprise?) they did.
I regularly hear stories of police around Slovenia being scared of entering Gypsy areas. They seem to be averse to any potentially risky situations. Recently in Maribor, they famously didn’t come to the aid of some poor suckers who got jumped in the park by thugs. And I know that on the one occasion when I called them, they were bizarrely reluctant to come over.1
The only area of justice the police seem committed to is issuing traffic tickets, which they do with gusto. So all this talk of educating Roma and educating tolerant Slovenes should instead focus on educating the police and having them enforce the rule of law. In other words, the folks manning the tanka modra Ä?rta (thin blue line) need higher salaries, better equipment, and a freer hand to intervene against the dark impulses of humanity.
You can probably tell by now that I have something of a Hobbesian outlook on life. But I think there’s a limit to how this problem can be solved — if it can be solved at all. I certainly don’t think there’s any hope in educating people to be more tolerant. Really none. The unfortunate truth is that people don’t want to live with people that are different from them. Not just in Slovenia, but everywhere. The reason that Europeans have been at peace after many centuries of violence is not because people are more enlightened or better educated, but because their borders are finally in synch with their various nationalities. Europeans are peaceful because they’re living with the same Europeans. (I’ll mention immigrants in a bit.)
What we can generally say is that World War 2 straightened things out — to the point where you don’t find cities that are split nearly equally among ethnic lines, like many Slovenian cities were for a very long time. We can also see that as soon as borders get fuzzy, like in Bosnia in the 1990s, killing immediately resumes. Keep in mind that Yugoslavs were very well-educated and were force-fed lessons in tolerance and brotherhood for decades. So why did they do it? Because Croats and Serbs and Bosniaks and Slovenes and Czechs and Slovaks all hate the idea of living together. And they’re not alone. Even the English and Scots want to separate, according to one recent poll.
The economist Thomas C. Schelling, as well as Joshua Epstein and others have done some interesting work on artificial societies — using computer simulations to predict group behavior. Some of their results were written about by Jonathan Rauch in The Atlantic in a heart-shattering story called Seeing Around Corners. (Paywall, unfortunately) Among other things, Schelling’s early experiments showed that two groups of people (let’s say blue and red) naturally segregated apart, even if neither group necessarily minded being in the minority. The only thing the artificial agents were programmed to mind was being entirely alone. The experiment showed that segregation happens even then. Societies, Rauch concluded, can unconsciously order themselves.
And, unfortunately, they can also do the opposite. Epstein constructed models with two groups, but added ethnic tension and various other elements as well. (Fear of police reprisal, level of anger, etc..) He found that slight shifts in tension often started something of a chain reaction, with the groups eventually going at each other and ultimately wiping each other out — without organizing or working together, just with each agent acting alone.
It’s all very disturbing, but a similar phenomenon seems to keep people segregated in the real world as well. Western Europe, for all its self-congratulatory commitment to “diversity,” is anything but diverse. In fact, I would venture to say that Slovenia, despite having far less foreigners, is in a way more diverse. The reason: chaotic Socialist zoning laws. Whereas western Europe has firmly crystallized into various homogeneous neighborhoods with isolated banlieues, here you can still find lower/middle/upper class residencies mixed up together. This is changing, rapidly, but for the time being that’s how it is.
The United States also has a myth of a melting pot, but it’s more segregated now than it was when there was official segregation. That’s something to think about. (Harper’s ran a depressing story about this that you can read here: Still Separate, Still Unequal.)
In light of this, I don’t think there’s any reason to believe that Slovenia will avoid segregating as well. The Ambrus incident seems to be a natural stage in Slovenia’s development towards a more western European model. Eventually, Slovenia’s Roma will be pushed into even further isolation or — like Epsten’s artificial genocide experiments — something worse will happen. As Rauch writes:
“Epstein has run (his) simulation countless times from different random starting points, and it turns out that neither color enjoys an inherent advantage: blues and greens are equally likely to prevail, with the outcome depending on random local events that tilt the balance one way or the other. No two runs are quite alike. But all are the same in one respect: once a side has attained the upper hand, its greater numbers allow it to annihilate the other side sooner or later.”
Thanks to everyone who sent me links and stories. If you’re interested, here are some:
* Ostracized Roam still struggle across Balkans (Reuters)
* Violence and persecution follow the Roma across Europe (Graudian)
* Blogger Borut Peterlin has been following and reporting on the story intensively
- One night I saw, from my balcony, a young woman with a group of about four or five young men. The girl was out cold and the men were moving her around and talking about what to do, and specifically what to do to her. It clearly wasn’t going to end well: hence the call to the police. The police insisted that the girl herself had to call and report the fact that she may have been about to get molested while unconscious. The fact that she was K.O. didn’t seem to strike them as precluding that possibility. [back]
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Couldn’t have said it better myself. Very well put indeed!
Very well put, Michael! Wether you know it or not, your post also includes the answers to the problems you pointed out: better equipement and paycheks for the police (but not more powers - we don’t want a police state). Police is just an instrument in the government’s hands, hence the inaction of the police can and should be blamed on the government.
I share your Hobbesian outlook on life, but therein lies the key to the sollution. The government should and must enforce the rule of law - the sole reason (according to Hobbes) for having a government in the first place. The absence of necesary repressive authority brings about the sad results of the experiments you so eloquently described at the end of your post. THAT and economic and social deprivation are three main reasons for wars in Yugoslavia. The same three reasons also led up to WWII or any war since.
The question is not “where” to settle the family (they can only be settled back in Ambrus), the question is how to reinstitute the rule of law and *make* people live together with the Roma. And in these capitalist times the answer is - as always - money. More money for the police, more money for education, more money for “compensations” etc… It will definitely come cheaper than resettling any number of Roma families and rebulinding the tarnished repuutation.
This is one of rare good articles one can read right now. And yes, sadly, the answer is always money.
“The reason that Europeans have been at peace after many centuries of violence is not because people are more enlightened or better educated, but because their borders are finally in synch with their various nationalities.”
At each broder in Europe You can find very mixed population. Even more, usually population on both side of each border view themselves more similar to each other (culturaly) as compared to neighbours in their states.
The reason for a long-standing peace in Europe, in my opinion, is a growing cooperation between nations. Nations cooperate economically, politically, culturally. All of these stimulate mutual understanding and connectedness.
When nations are connected, when they closely cooperate, they value peace more. It is, therefore, the togetherness (I don’t want to say unity) that kept and will keep Europe in peace.
People tend to cooperate and exercise (some) tolerance and understanding if economically motivated. So yes, money’s the answer. This means Roma will probably gain (economic) importance only, if they cost us a lot of money…
The current PM said as much when asked about Ambrus the first time around. He said “who will pay for 200 special police forces stationed in Ambrus?”. So it IS about money. Money for the police, money for education, for socialization, etc… And the longer this drags on, the higher the final price tag will be.
ervinator: I do agree that there is blending at the borders, but I don’t think it’s anything like it used to be. Slovenia used to have signficant amounts of Germans and Italians, achieving majorities in places: now it has practically zero. There are some minorities by the borders, but even there (notably in Carinthia) we see regular disputes and conflict.
Indeed. The difference however is that the conflict in Austrian Carinthia is one between Slovene minority and the Austrian government. The current conflict in Slovenia is between majority and minority population.
Alcessa, the problem with Stroyan family (and plenty of Dolenjska Roma tribes as well) is that the only way of cooperation they practiced were stealing, blackmailng, killing.
Ervinator: I come from Prekmurje - I don’t know about Roma in Dolenjska, but let me tell you something about those in Prekmurje, OK?
It is often claimed that Roma there are sort of assimilated, but of course they also steal, rob and everything else. Now, let me stress one thing: for every petty or not so petty criminal deed a Roma was accused of, I could name you one and more “Goyim” (sorry, I couldn’t resist) that did it, too. Tell me, what do you want? Murder? Does the name Makoter ring the bell (even thought it’s Prlekija)? Those weren’t Roma who did it. Smuggling, human or drug trafficking? I know no Roma doing it. I was robbed twice in Slovenia - not by Roma. They even had or have the guts to go moonlightning in Austria. As well as their Slovenian counterparts in the border region - I assume.
Now, what is the percentage of Roma in Slovenia and what is the correspondent damage/terror they provoke?
Very well put, alcessa!
Alcessa, if a Roma in Prekmurje violates the law, he or she is judged, and consequently sent to prison. Their neighbours wouldn’t tolerate them neither if they were criminals. They have already let them know so.
In Dolenjska the situation is much different. Police and judiciary almost didn’t touch them at all. Their neighbours were afraid as well. It has been going on like this for much more than last 12 years.
The Stroyan family doesn’t have a house in DeÄ?ja vas. That house is illegal and will be destroyed. They only own some land. If they want to live anywhere in Slovenia, they will just have to obey the law, and cooperate with neighbours in peace. They have to learn that, though. Maybe the Prekmurje Roma can help them learn. But, another problem is that other Roma tribes also don’t like the Stroyans. It’s a big problem, and nobody except the Slovenian government is doing much to solve it.
ervinator: Not even the government is doing anything… What the gov’t does is buckle under the pressure of the mob. Illegal houses are a national sport in Slovenia, we all know that. There are more criminials amongst Slovenes than among Roma (even if just because of the sheer number of Slovenes). Makoter, Plut, Trobec… None of them is of Roma ethnicity. Point is that people of Ambrus ran the Strojan family out because they’re Roma and not because there are some criminals in the family.
Pengovsky, it seems to me that even you yourself don’t believe what you wrote at the end.
Oh, but I do. The whole thing turned racist. And if you need more proof, ask yourself why no other criminal is ever chased away? Why is it always those who are in some way different? The Roma, homosexuals, Bosnians…. Point is that transgressions of the few are applied to the population as a whole. And that’s racist.
The problem is also one of perception: we (yes: we) tend to be stricter about criminal things “others” did, more ready to accuse them, and may react more leniently when the same thing is committed by one of “us”.
Even more, there is the concept of “Radfahrermentalität” (cyclist mentality, I don’t know the English expression): to (o)press downwards (those underneath) and at the same time bow (in relation to those above) - it is also partly responsible for what is happening.
Now, I am a darkie myself and at school they used to call me “ciganica”. But I wasn’t really worried and it all stopped relatively soon - you know why? Because “cigani” didn’t go to OUR primary school. They all withot exception went to the special school for the disabled across the street. So no way could I be a ciganica!
I know why it is different with Roma in Dolenjska region : because police, judiciary and farmers are all afraid of them. People were scared to death because of armed criminals among some Roma families. You worry now about homosexuals, Bosnians, etc. But they too were scared of Stroyans.
I hate to repeat myself: I worry because the transgressions of the few being transposed onto the entire minority. That’s (again) racist.
If the police were afraid of them - then why the bold and the brave people of Ambrus failed to protest in front of the Government building…? Oh, sorry… They did… in 2004, with the current PM telling them that it’s all right to do so… Why drive the Roma out, why not stage a protest in front of Interior ministry demanding more police force in the area? No, they rather took the law into their own hands, assuring the “Endlösung” of the problem. Or so they thought, anyway…
Pengovsky, maybe after you repeat yourself it would be a good idea to read againg what you wrote …
Why didn’t people from Ambrus protest in front of the goverment after all governments for so many years didn’t do much governance in their village, you ask?
Obviously, The rule of law has been absent for a long time there. They wrote many times to slovenian ombudsman. He did nothing. He never visited them. So they had to do something to force the government into solving these problems.
Ervinator, because I’m curious: what makes this family so much more dangerous? Why the Great Fear?
I don’t intend to repeat myself. But if you’d like you can get a lot of information on this site:
www.hervardi.com/ciganska_problematika.php#ambrus
Ervinator, after having read about why we should call Roma cigani, I wanted to proceed with family Strojan. But then I read that there are 10 million of Roma in the EU and only 2,5 million Slovenians, so we shlould all be worried. And very very careful! I may return to your linked page, but not today. I’m way too busy being afraid of the 10 million Gipsies.
Hehe… Hervardi.com. A very impartial source of information, I’m sure…”PrepriÄ?ani smo, da moramo v danaÅ¡nji multikulturni družbi, katera prinaÅ¡a po naÅ¡em mnenju celo vrsto negativnih pojavov, vzpostaviti raznim protinacionalnim in neoliberalnim pa tudi kakÅ¡nim drugim težnjam, vsaj enakovredno protiutež! To je naÅ¡a moralna pravica in dolžnost! Zato se moramo slovenski domoljubi združiti v enotno organizacijo, ki bo znala ter zmogla zastopati naÅ¡e interese! ” (source)
@alcessa: I guess the above explains the great fear.
I never thought of myself anti-national or neoliberal. But hey, who am I to argue!
Wow! When did we get the extra 500.000 Slovenes in the EU?!? Is DrobniÄ?’s anti-abortion plan already showing results?
Michael, the one thing that shocked me was the Porajmos link you posted. Upon the embarassing realisation that the Gypsies (as they were still formally called then) were probably more Aryan than the Germans will ever be, the Nazi scientists quickly came up with an explanation about how certain branches of the tribe were “purer” and “better” than others.
That sound disturbingly like the explanation that’s beeing floated today for why there is supposedly only problems with Roma in one geographical location in Slovenia. Well of course, they’re from a different, more troublemaking branch of the tribe. Duh. Sure, Fredy Miler and Oto Pestner may have Roma blood, but they’re not really Gypsies, they’re Sinti, right? So they’re okay, right? Sound familiar?
I would never say that the site is an impartial source of information. Try not seek author’s standpoints but facts. For example, you can find there some black-chronicle newspaper articles about the Stroyans. When one seeks new information one should always check for different sources.
Michael,
A great piece of writing and linkage on this truly sad situation. I’d only read bits about it here in the States from the NYT articles you’d mentioned. The commentary that your piece started up has been some of the best on your site as well. Kudos especially to Pengovsky and Alcessa and even to Ervinator, who, though I may not agree with him, has kept his side of the story civil.
I know that the Roma “problem” is not something discussed ot acted upon just in Slovenia. I’ve heard from relatives that there are quite similar situations in Croatia as well. The diffused presence of Roam in so many of the EU countries has made it a situation no one really wants to talk about or deal it. It’s Europe’s Shame, in a way, not that I’m singling out the Old Countries. The Travelers are here as well though their status is rarely addressed except to Americanize them as Romani Americans. There seems to be about 500,000 Roma in the US of A, which with the total population at 300 million makes them a minority of 0.167% of the total population, a tiny enough group to be able to bothe disappear into the vastness and to be picked on without major legal hassles.
Exactly… And those sources DO NOT include a white-supremacist website which is oblivious to the rest of the world. Also - the fact that this site cites only some articles (the ones from crime report sections) and not all the rest which were published on the issue, makes this site highly biased in the very least.
Pengovsky, one has to search for information. If you’d like to read some other articles, you will go and find them elsewhere. But I haven’t seen these articles anywhere else. There are plenty of facts from black chronicles that answer the Alcessa’s question.
Ervinator, I did go back and had a look. Now I have another question (You’ll agree I have to ask it): What difference is there between those deeds and the black chronicles concerning non-Roma?
Take another look, will you?
The main diffrence is that non-Roma are punished by the law of Slovenia, while Roma usualy are not.
But if you prefer different kind of examples, here’s one: non-Roma children don’t usualy go with their parents to violently rob 88-year women …
No. Non-Roma children usually do that by themselves. And seldomly get punished anyhow.
It says so in the articles, yes. But it is not true. Believe me.
Now, I am an oldish person and I don’t know personally about the drug scene in my home town, but my sister told me stories about non-Roma children that made my hair stand up. Like, teenage drug-addicts robbing their grannies and stuff. So, maybe I haven’t pointed that out, but if I want to worry I do tend to get worried about the state of things in general and cannot detect a much greater guilt with Roma than I do with the rest of the people.
Alcessa, I believe you do tend to see things in broader view. But if you lived in Ambrus you would see how the Stroyans are. I’m quite surprised of people who stand for the Roma, but on the other side, they would not try to understand the people from Ambrus. Do they realy think it is a blind racial hatred? It is crazy to think so. There are lot of data to prove contrariwise. Doesn’t it ring a bell that the people from Ambrus are so scared by this family?
Oh, I’m quite sure that they’re scared of the Strojans. I wonder however, why the people of Ribnica are scared of them. Or the people of KoÄ?evje. Or the people of Sostro. But none of them is scared just of Strojans. They’re scared of Roma in general. And that IS blind racial hatred. I’m sorry to draw the parallel, but it is not unlike the fear of the Jews. Or Bosnians (Serbs, Croats, Albanians). Or Muslims - if you want a more domestic example.
I strongly disagree. We hear a lot of Roma in Prekmurje. I know about them from the conversations to friends. This is absolutely different story. They would not have nearly that much problems finding a legal place to live as now the Stroyans have. The reason is simply that there is some truth about some Roma tribes which “peace-activists” don’t want to hear.
Ok, yes. I wouldn’t want to live in Ambrus myself. But you see, there are other places I wouldn’t want to live in, either.
First of all, I agree with Michael: there is no way one can educate people to love their minorities etc. We need a functioning state instead. One protecting/punishing Roma and Ambrusians correctly. Also, I am/was pleading for the awareness about different perceptions that we tend to have. Let us all think before accusing a member of minority with strong words - would they be as strong if hurled towards a member of our own clan? Also, I’m sure Roma and other minorities get bad treatment simply because they belong to their respective groups. I don’t know why all the Roma children of my childhood went to the “special school”, you see. They often looked much too intelligent for that. And, as I said, it can be enough to look like one of them to get exposed.
And then, I am sure that there is as much criminallity among non-Roma as there is to be found with “Gipsies”. Also, I’m sure a certain part of it remains undiscovered, unpunished.
And to end this summary (I’ve occupied Michael’s blog today (sorry) so it’s high time for a drawback): I agree with Michael once more: it is a terribly depressing topic.
You dissagree… with what exactly? With the fact that noone wants the Strojans as their neighbourghs? Or with the fact that people are scared of Roma in general? Or that the fear of the Roma is basically the same thing as the fear of the Jews, Muslims, etc…?
“The reason that Europeans have been at peace after many centuries of violence is not because people are more enlightened or better educated, but because their borders are finally in synch with their various nationalities.�
WWII, which redrew the borders also nearly obliterated a population that noone wanted as their neighbors. Once, on the radio in Austria, I actually heard a politician say that an increased Jewish population would lead to more anti-Semitism - because, you know, racial/religious hatred is caused by that racial/religious group.
Populations that cross the lines - there are Polish Jews and Dutch Jews or don’t feel bound by the lines (the Roma? - admittedly I am ignorant about this population) or to whom the lines are arbitrary (new immigrants?) end up without a place to be.
Heady stuff between the soft porn and album covers. Off to read more about this in your links. Thanks for posting, I didn’t know about this story.
I disagree with the perception that people are scared of Roma in general. This one is not the fact.
I agree with you, Michael. The only thing I am not sure of is the policemen’s salary. From what I hear they get paid pretty well and just don’t want to bother actually working and helping people.
Ervinator, let me ask you a question. I’ve noticed in many discussions that I’d been following since this whole ordeal started that people who try to see guilt spread more equally, i.e. not exclusively with the Roma, often get labeled as Roma defenders.
Here’s the question. Don’t you see that it’s not the Roma or the Strojans per se these people are defending, but a broader concept of a country less discriminatory? I’m sorry to have to single you out like this, but you did bring up the notion of the “peace activists” unwilling to see the whole picture. Don’t you think maybe the other side is not quite seeing the whole picture either?
pengovsky, let them move into your hose since you seen to be so tolerant and enlightened. teach us your wise ways, only if you can, seeing as how we are so primitive and intolerant.
@Rob: I’ve no quarrel with the Roma people. And as far as I’m concerned they’re welcome to live anywhere in Ljubljana. In fact plenty of Roma people DO live in Ljubljana.
Should anyone (be it Roma or Slovene) do anything against my person (bodily or psychological harm) rest assured I will do everthing to hunt them down and bring them to justice. I have already done that on several occasions. But I will not take justice into my own hands, unless facing clear and present danger (i.e. a knife on my throat). And if memory serves noone was holding a knife to the throats of people of Ambrus when they evicted the Strojans.
What I’ve been trying to say is that the people of Ambrus have indiscriminatly evicted an entire family because they’re Roma. Individuals who commit crimes should be arrested, tried and convicted if found guilty. And their families should not be held accountable for their actions. Especially underaged children.
There is a difference between being primitive and intolerant. While a mob is by definition primitive (check with Freud on that one), higly educated individuals are just as capable of being intolerans and/or racist.
To Alcessa, Ervinator and Pengovsky: your debate was very interesting and I think it’s good to talk about these things but I’d like to stress one thing - as sad as it is, there always was and always will be racial and social intolerance and fear of those who are different. I think it’s beside the point to argue about whether the Strojans are really all a bunch of criminals and whether the people of Ambrus are all a bunch of narrow-minded racists. I’m sure the truth (as usual) lies somewhere in the middle. The point in my oppinion is that no matter how many problems the Roma were causing in Ambrus and no matter how the people living there hated or feared them they had NO RIGHT to take the law into their own hands and drive them off their land. The fact that they did this with the help of the police and the government, is what we should be wooried about.
I´ve been plenty of times to Prekmurje, my father is from Murska Sobota.
I know there have been problems with some individuals that are roma and I know that they have lived a somewhat different life than the ordinary slovenian. But I have never seen or heard anything like the situation of Ambrus occuring in Prekmurje. I see the romas as natural a component of Prekmurje as any other. They have “always” been there and will hopefully always be a part of it. Prekmurje wouldn´t be the same without them. I love Prekmurje for its fascinating mix of different people, slovenians,romas,hungarians,
protestants and catholics. There MUST be something that Prekmurje has done right that has not had its equivalence in the rest of Slovenija?
I read that the mob of Ambrus sang the national anthem after having forced the roma out. If that is true it really shows a rascist attitude. I also read that the mayor had said something like: We don´t have any problems with the roma but they will be better of somewhere else. (This is not a direct quote) If that statement is true then that really says it all.
I felt physically ill when I read about Ambrus. And I felt very ashamed of being slovenian….and that is something that has never happened before….
And now - the Strojan family (at least part of it) is back in Ambrus and soo far things are quiet, albeit probably due to relateively strong police presence. We’ll see what happens come nightfall.
My answer to Cornelius.
What you have observed is a way the human mind works most naturaly. It is a black & white topoi. It is an efficient way of making quick decisions. Both, a hunter and a prey, have to make quick decision in order to get food. Introducing alternatives takes more effort and time. I surely believe you that many people see Slovenian peace-activists are labeled as Roma defenders in negative sense. What I’ve noticed in last ten years, on the other side, is intolerant speach of the same peace-activists who think they are promoting tolerance. They too for too many times take black & white standpoints. Nevertheless, I strongly believe that people from Metelkova should have more voice. Unfortunately they’ve substanialyy lost credibility (in different subjects) when they used extremely weak arguments.
I’ll write a commentary on the action for returning Stroyans to DeÄ?ja vas, later on today on
ervinator.wordpress.com/2006/12/01/peticija-za-vrnitev-romov/
Ervinator, this is a bit off-the-wall, but I’m curious - do you believe that 911 was brought about by the U.S. government? Do you believe that it wasn’t really caused by Muslim extremists, but was caused by the Bush administration, to create the impetus to invade the Middle East? I’d love to hear your response to that.
Hi Patrick,
I’d say that your question is really out of the context … To answer you shortly, I do believe that Al Kaida is responsible for the 9/11. I also believe Democrats that Bush hampered the work of US Intelligence Agencies from the beginning of his mandate, and put more budget money to military industry (continuing the star war - developing a space shell). I will write some more about this some day but it is not a priority at the time.
Ervinator,
Yes, completely out of context. I was just taking the pulse. It’s just that whenever I’m in LJ, I have to deal with that issue - that is, normally very intelligent people actually believing the unbelievable. Also, I have some disagreement with you as to your other comments here. But - thank you for the answer.