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"Death to capitalism" — graffiti on a Slovenian bank.
In 2004, Croatia put a moratorium on Sunday shopping. Shortly thereafter, and not uncoincidentally, retailers reported a 20% drop in sales and started firing employees. Within the same year, the ill-considered ban was succesfully struck down on constitutional grounds and the damage was reversed.
Two years later, Slovenia has decided to begin its own journey into folly. As of January 1, 2006, the inexplicably idiotic ban on Sunday shopping has officially come to the sunny side of Alps. It’s been a long time brewing. Back in 2003, there was a referendum on whether shops should be open on Sunday. Only 27.4% of people bothered to vote; everyone else was busy shopping for stuff. The referendum passed easily, despite the fact that it might not (and probably does not) have the support of the general public. A poll taken yesterday on the ever-popular show Trenja showed a 58-42 split in favor of being allowed to go shopping on Sundays, with about 20,000 votes recorded.
I happen to think that this is the kind of question that the market should settle by itself, but that’s just me. I can say that, so far, I haven’t heard a single decent argument about why shutting shops down on Sunday is a good thing. The idea that Sunday is the Lord’s day and that Slovenes should be going to church (as has been suggested) is preposterous — not just because state-sponsored religion is a lousy idea (see Article 7 of the constitution) but because Slovenia also happens to be notably irreligious.
Nominally about 57% of people are Catholic, but this includes people who never go to church, can’t name the apostles, and think Jesus Christ is a character from an Andrew Lloyd Webber musical. In short, the number of practicing Catholics is significantly lower. Meanwhile, around 35-38% of people here are atheists and non-believers, making Slovenia the 18th most atheistic country on Earth. In other words, countries that are deeply religious, and where atheists are in the single digits (Croatia, Italy, U.S.A.) have their stores open on Sunday. But Slovenia should have them closed to satisfy a significantly smaller Catholic population?
Another common justification is that stores should be closed to protect small retailers. Little grocers, the reasoning goes, can’t keep up with the hypermarkets. The Sunday ban helps level the playing field. The problem, of course, is that little retailers can’t be saved. They don’t have a chance either way. Remember the final scene in Return of the Jedi? It goes:
Darth Vader: Luke, help me take this mask off.
Luke: But you’ll die!
Darth Vader: Nothing can stop that now.
Well, nothing can stop this now: small stores are going to get rolled over by large European retailers, like Aldi, Lidl, E.Leclerc, etc… And, considering how wildly expensive stuff like food is here, that’s probably a good thing. Go take a look at the EU Consumer Price Index for Food, and you’ll notice that Slovenia is the second-most expensive place for foodstuffs in the entire Union. (Only Hungary is worse.) That’s madness.
Another argument for the ban is that it allows women to spend more time with their children, thus strengthening the family unit. Again, nevermind that Slovenes are the least fertile people in Europe, and that their specialty seems to be not having children at all. The big question that this raises for me personally is this: my job requires me to work almost every weekend, and many holidays too — why am I not being extended similar privileges? Why should the government discriminate against me (and against other people who have to work at inconvenient times) while others enjoy parliamentary protection? Article 14 of the Slovenian constitution clearly lays out equality before the law, and yet "Sundays off" is only bestowed on a privileged minority.
This ban is a mistake on many levels, especially when you consider that Slovenia could have courted a lot of Austrian money and tourists on Sundays. (Austria has a similar ban on Sunday shopping — but keep in mind that they’re a wealthy country not trying to "catch up" economically with the EU.) Instead, Slovenian shoppers will now head out to Italy, Croatia, and (to a lesser extent) Hungary on Sundays and pour their money into their economies.
As one Italian mall manager near the border told Slovenian television: "I don’t know how Slovenes feel about it, but it’s good for us."
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I’m with you on this one Mike, this Sunday shopping ban is about as
intelligent and useful as smashing one’s head against a sheet-metal
coated concrete wall (ie. not very). Plus all these Slovenian
referendums = undemocracy. That’s right folks.
I agree, the ban is as stupid as it gets! And definetely they should
consider people from other occupations that are working Sundays! Even
untill now, my comming back home to Slovenia many times coincided with
one or the other national holliday and left me stranded in front of the
closed doors, fridge empty and kids nagging…. Being spoilt by living in the country of psychotic
consumers and having ALL the shops opened every day, even on the
national hollidays makes me wonder, where Slovenia and it’s consumers
are headed. Probably to the church …
I have nothing against shops being closed on Sundays. There are no shops where I useually spend my weekends anyway. Probably it’s not directly comparable, but Michael, even you don’t update your blog on weekends …
I vividly remember one interview from the day of the referendum: POP tv sent a reporter to a shopping center to interview shoppers. Most shoppers said they didn’t vote in the referendum. One said he had, and proudly announced he had voted in favor of stores closing on sunday. The mind boggles at such stupidty.
Matej, he doesn’t update his blog, but he mentions he often works on weekends.
I
agree with this argument of (non)equality. Why would doctors,
newsreporters, people at gas stations, etc. have to work on Sundays?
Why not ban them from working too?
I think this is complete
rubbish and I can only hope those idiots in the government realize how
foolish this decision was before it does some significant (economic)
damage.
I’m glad that the shops are being closed on Sundays. People shop too much anyway, buying worthless junk they don’t really need, and wasting their time and money in the process. Lately many have taken to shopping as a kind of recreational activity. This is one of those areas where people aren’t able to resist the temptation to do things that are harmful to themselves in the long run. We cannot hope that the market will sort this out — it will only lead to worse and worse exploitation. As far as I’m concerned, each shop could just as well be open only two or three days a week. People would still be able to buy everything they need, and if they have to go without bread for a day every now and then because they weren’t able to organize their shopping, that would teach them to think more carefully the next time, and eating a bit less that afternoon would do wonders for their waistline.
And Michael, I would gladly support any legislation that would help you, and any other persons, avoid work on Sundays, or indeed on as many other days as possible.
Have a read at the interview with Svetlana Makarovic on Mladina…
I’m glad that the shops are being closed on Sundays. People shop too
much anyway, buying worthless junk they don’t really need, and wasting
their time and money in the process.Please note that key words in this sentence are their time and money. Lately many have taken to shopping
as a kind of recreational activity. This is one of those areas where
people aren’t able to resist the temptation to do things that are
harmful to themselves in the long run.Well, let’s ban it then. Hell, why stop there. I’ve got a long list of things that are harmful to you in the long run. We cannot hope that the market
will sort this out — it will only lead to worse and worse
exploitation.Market
should sort out people’s behaviour ? Shops sell, buyers buy, workers
get paid. That’s it. Perhaps you’ve mixed up capitalism with communism.
As far as I’m concerned, each shop could just as well be
open only two or three days a week.Fine
You pick Mondays, Tuesdays and Wednesdays, I’ll pick Thursdays, Fridays
and Saturdays. Which leaves Michael high and dry, to shop only on
Sundays.And Michael, I would gladly support any legislation that
would help you, and any other persons, avoid work on Sundays, or indeed
on as many other days as possible.You can do that now, without a special legislation. And I do guarantee it will do wonders to your waistline.
A link to the interview:http://www.mladina.si/tednik/200601/clanek/slo-intervju–jani_sever/
Ban is stupid I agree. But other referendums were even worse
(especially about medical help for single women). I now wait when they
will start a referendum on expulsion of Roma or something similarly
idiotic? Whom should we vote for next time? Hm…
Like Michael (I assume), I spent most of my life in the US, where, with the exception of two days a year, you could shop for bowling balls, lawn furniture, pringles and sushi 24 hours a day. If that’s what Slovenians want or think they need, then they should have it. (They should also take their referendums more seriously.) Changes in lifestyle and work habits now force many to either shop or work on Sundays. I too work Sundays –weekends generally make up my busiest work days– so I don’t have a problem with people working on Sundays. I do have a problem with people wanting/needing to spend their weekends in shopping malls. But that’s just me. I hate shopping malls. That’s why I loved Dawn of the Dead (the original) so much. Mojo Nixon’s Burn Down the Malls is also one of my favorite holiday songs, even though it’s not really a holiday song.Ugh. Back to bed.
One musn’t forget that the decision to close shops was political. The "save-the-small-retailers" line is just a smokescreen for social engineering by the government. How to force people to watch government-controlled TV, attend church or make sure that they spend their time like they did it in 1900. Probably the next step is closing the stores on Saturdays too. Those who don’t like shopping on Sundays didn’t and don’t have to do so. Those, who like/have to do the shopping on sundays shouldn’t be prohibited from doing so.True, people who work in stores on Sundays should be payed more - and if the store can’t afford that it is closed for business anyway.
Great post, Michael!I’m not sure whether ill-advised’s comments are sarcastic or not, but let me respond to them anyway:"I’m glad that the shops are being closed on Sundays. People shop too much anyway, buying worthless junk they don’t really need, and wasting their time and money in the process."You have every right to believe that, and I truly respect your decision not to shop on Sundays. However, many other people do not feel this way, so why should the State decide what they should or shouldn’t do? Aren’t they adults who have every right to see this situation differently than yourself? Why on Earth should the State regulate private enterprise in this manner? Doesn’t the State have way too much influence on the economy already?"This is one of those areas where people aren’t able to resist the temptation to do things that are harmful to themselves in the long run."Again, they are adults, just like you. They may be right, or they may be wrong, depending on your perspective. As long as their rights do not limit the rights of others, however, there is not reason why the State should intervene."We cannot hope that the market will sort this out — it will only lead to worse and worse exploitation."Exloitation of whom? No one is forcing people to go work in the retail sector. It’s their choice. As others have mentioned, there are of plenty of other jobs that involve work on Sundays — and many more that don’t."And Michael, I would gladly support any legislation that would help you, and any other persons, avoid work on Sundays, or indeed on as many other days as possible."And let’s see how many months it will take the Slovenian economy to fail after that legislation takes effect…
I fall into the category of people who work every day of the week except Sunday. What that means is that I have no time to go and buy the week’s shopping except for on Sundays. So I, like many others, used to be found every Sunday fighting the crowds in Interspar in CityPark trying to get that last fresh loaf before it disappeared from the shelf, and stocking up on fresh milk and meat. Now that possibility has been taken away from the huge amount of people in the same boat as me, and what choice do we have now? We can go to a Petrol and pay twice as much for bread. Why are Petrol and NoÄ? in Dan allowed to stay open on Sundays? Surely this gives them an unfair advantage and also allows them to charge whatever they want due to lack of competition. Bring back Sunday opening!
I agree with many of the things in this post. But do not forget that:a)
The results of a referendum are legitimate and binding regardless of
the percentage of people who bother to vote. Non-voting at a referendum
means, in legal terms, the consent to pass the power to make a decision
to those who do vote.b) If I were you, I wouldn’t call a law
passed on the sole basis of the will of the people (and actually
against or semi-against all political parties’ views) an inexplicably idiotic one. Especially as a foreigner in this country. It’s a matter of good manners, nothing else.c) Results of public polls such as the one by Trenja
cannot be considered representative of the general public opinion,
because they only record the opinions of those who pay for it, and
because people get to vote multiple times. Usually, these will be those
who are most provoked by the question. Do not make the mistake of
building arguments upon them.d) The HICP is used to compare prices among different time periods, not territories, so how does quoting it prove that food in Slovenia is relatively expensive?All
in all, a very poorly constructed post that disappoints me. Even though
I agree with you generally. The law should be changed, and will be, as
soon as our intelligent government finds out that the results of a legislative referendum are only binding for two years.
Democracy will cease to exist when you take away from those who are willing to work and give to those who would not.
Interesting comments so far. A few replies for Simon:a) I’m aware that the referendum is binding no matter what. That still doesn’t make it a good idea. Or a triumph of democracy.b) Sorry, but this is utterly obnoxious. I’m a permanent resident of Slovenia, whose wife and two children are citizens, and even regardless of my own nationality, I am guaranteed (again, the lovely Article 14) the same equal rights as other citizens, including free speech. (Article 39) And yet I should watch what I say? I don’t get to criticize anything as idiotic because I’m a "foreigner"? Slovenia is my home; the laws that are passed have as much of an impact on my life as they do on someone who was born here. I abide and respect the laws of the land, and love this country as my own, but to hell with you if you think I should censor myself because I don’t have the proper blood or nationality.c) A good point. Trenja doesn’t speak for the country, and I did (unsuccessfully) look for some other reliable polls. But I do think it often reflects the national mood, however inaccurately. In this case, it shows that perhaps neither side has a clear majority, and that it could easily be that the majority is against the new law.d) I intended to post a link to a comparison of grocery basket prices across the EU. I don’t have too much time to dig up the appropriate results now, but for one there’s this study, (PDF) which says: "Both the EU and the United States have much higher food prices than the wealthiest Eastern European countries, with the exception of Slovenia."
@Simon: If I were you, I wouldn’t call a law
passed on the sole basis of the will of the people (and actually
against or semi-against all political parties’ views) an inexplicably idiotic one.Don’t be stupid. Anyone can name a law idiotic if he observes it as such, even a real foreigner who haven’t set a foot in Slovenia. It is common knowledge that people in general are dumbasses and currently elected politicians, with stars as JanÅ¡a, Rupar, PeÄ?e et co. and other Christian hypocrites are the lowest of the low.
I still cannot get my head around the very idea that some people believe that opening hours/days of private businesses should be a matter of legislation.We had similar attempts in Slovakia and even in the Czech Republic. The causes given for this Sunday ban were mostly the same, but they are secondary; what matters is that some people seek to have a semblance of control over society, its a feel-good excercise for the power hungry control freaks, who have no idea what free society means. To paraphrase Lt. Drebin, we should run them out of town like common pygmies.
I don’t agree with you on that one.Presonally, I don’t give a damn whether the shops are open on Sunday or not. But I think people have all the right to decide if a day of the week should be, let’s say so, "sacred". In Israel (which I would regard as a pretty capitalist country) everything closes on the Sabbath. So, why not closing shops on Sunday? Expecially since it’s long not only a religious but also a family holiday. Why the f*** should the shops be opened on every f***ing day of the week??In Italy, for example, shops are closed on Monday. It’s been so since eternity. In Slovenia, people (remember, Michael: "we, the people…"?) have decided, in the most democratic way, to keep shops closed on Sundays. Big deal! I really don’t understand why just EVERYTHING should revolve around commerce? I’m glad Slovenians decided the way they did.And if Italian and Austrian shopkeepers will get the benefit… let them have it!! At least, Slovenian will be spoken in shops again (don’t forget that Gorizia/Gorica has become a fully bilingual town again only because of Slovenian shopping turists that flooded the town in the 80-ies and 90-ies).
As someone for whom shopping is a recreational activity I have strong feelings on the issue which has been the subject of heated discussions in Austria for years. Like in Slovenia, there obviously is considerable demand for shops to be open on Sundays as people are willing to splurge out on expensive petrol in order to drive to Hungary where they have more liberal regulations. I completely agree with Michael that the religious argument is very hyprocritical given the number of church-going people which is rather marginal in my country as well.In my opinion and in an ideal world, students/other people who would be only too happy to earn some extra cash should work the Sunday shifts. In practice, however, many small family-run shops can’t afford part-time help and it is those who always complain that they’d be forced to open just out of pressure for the one or two customers who might actually turn up. Then again, nobody did force them to work in retail…In conclusion and before everyone stones him, I have to defend Simon re: good manners. Freedom of speech and permanent residency notwithstanding, it’s a touchy subject and can perhaps be compared to the difference in complaining about your parents/partner and somebody else saying the same about your loved ones, be it accurate or not…
"Article 14 of the Slovenian constitution clearly lays out equality before the law, and yet "Sundays off" is only bestowed on a privileged minority."That’s a lousy argument and you know it. "Equality before the law" doesn’t mean that Parliament can’t regulate (and to regulate means to issue certain distinctions). The Article 14. would be violeted if the Legislator had written: "All shops in turist areas, not larger than 200 m2 can be opened on Sundays … exept the ones owned by people whose first name is "Smiljan" or "Djurdje" …". That’s why the Costitutional Court nullyfied the provision that exeptions to the rule should be specified by the Minister of Economy. Now the exceptions are included in the law. And I believe it’s a good and balanced law. Long live the slovenian Parliament!
I don’t mind complaints about poor manners, although this site is probably the last place to visit if you’re sensitive to such things. What irks me is the "especially as a foreigner" line – and the implications of it.Luka: I agree with you insofar is that I also don’t personally care too much about shopping on Sundays. I generally don’t even like shopping, but I dislike the idea of government-imposed restrictions even more. For me, the question is: why should someone who wants to sell something on Sunday, and someone who wants to buy something on Sunday, be forbidden from getting together and having a blast?
Hi! First-time commentor…Found your site by doing a search on "Croatia" "Adriatic" "sharks." (And the shot of the great white by the boat did scare me shitless). I’m planning a trip to Croatia (yes, this land-locked gal in Kansas has her ticket to Split in hand) and I have to say, as tourist, thank GOD they have shopping on Sunday now. I mean, where would I spend my greedy American dollars? As for Slovenia…I can relate. We still have the "no beer sold on Sundays" religious thing going on here. Not to mention the intelligent design debate…don’t get me started. Maybe Slovenians (is that right?) need that extra Sunday to procreate.Like your blog and will be back.
First of all, I agree that the "especially a foreigner" comment was inappropriate, especially considering Michael’s deep connections to Slovenia and his obvious passion for this country (exemplified by the very existence of this blog, and by the fact that he cares enough about Slovenia to have strong political views about issues affecting its well-being).Luka: "But I think people have all the right to decide if a day of the week should be, let’s say so, "sacred". In Israel (which I would regard as a pretty capitalist country) everything closes on the Sabbath. So, why not closing shops on Sunday? Expecially since it’s long not only a religious but also a family holiday."If individual storekeepers decided to close on Sundays in order to honor this family holiday, I would have nothing against it. I do have a problem with the State telling people when private businesses can be open and when they should remain closed. They aren’t state-owned stores, so why shouldn’t their owners be allowed to make that decision? Why shouldn’t all business owners and managers be allowed to set their own opening hours, which are such an important part of their business plan? Why should retailers be treated differently than other businesses (restaurants, media outlets, gas stations)? "In Israel (which I would regard as a pretty capitalist country) everything closes on the Sabbath."Israel has a different understanding of the role of religion in society than Slovenia. El Al doesn’t fly on the Sabbath either, for instance.
we are known for our speciality of limiting the field of choices with a law. We do it all the time. Right now, they are trying to pass a bill which would enable us to have referendum only once a year. Such is our way…and in the end, we will find ourselves in a veeery tinnnnyyyy room with no air to breathe, because the last referendum decision we will adopt will be "should air be allowed to breathe freely or just on saturdays?"
Michael: "I generally don’t even like shopping, but I dislike the idea of government-imposed restrictions even more."I thought we had a referendum…AZ2SI: "I do have a problem with the State telling people when private businesses can be open and when they should remain closed."Again, I thought there was something called a referendum. I agree: you cannot decide on a referendum on individual (or collective for that matter) rights. Whether something is of public domain (and thus subject to legislation or referenda) is a tricky question. I believe anyway we (we, as "we Europeans") should redefine what public is. But here I have no doubt: the Government CAN legislate on opening hours and it DOES do so! (Can you have opened a shop on aNational Holiday? Can you have a disco bar opened till 5 in the morning in a densely populated urban area?) You see, the Government HAS the right to regulate public enterprise, even according to "public moral" and "common values" (example: can you in the USA- home of the brave and land of the free- publicly advertise pornografic material?). Of course, the question WHAT "common values" are, is a political one. We had a referendum. If, as Michael suggested, the ones who favoured Sunday shopping remained home (or went shopping) they showed little interest in participating in the legislative process. It’s their problem if the "legislative process" showed little concern them in return … :)BTW, I was one of the 73% of Slovenes who didn’t vote…
Here’s an idea. If you don’t like shopping on Sunday’s because of religious beliefs or any other reason, then don’t. But many people only have time on Sunday’s because their more than full time job during the week and the time they spend with their family on evenings prohibit them from shopping during the week. I would be willing to bet that at least 75% of those that have voted to close stores on Sunday’s have shopped on at least 1 Sunday themselves because of the convenience.The government should not create laws that dictate the actions of the people, the people should be responsible enough to control their own actions, at least in this instance
Michael, before I start reading comments on your article, I have to tell you, that you’re absolutely right! The whole thing is just unbelievable idiotic. I mean: if you want to spend your weekends with your family, than DO so. If all the stores in the country need to be closed, for you to spend 5 minutes of your week with your family, then there is something wrong with YOU (not you literally, though, LOL), not the STORES. I just can’t imagine how dumb one must be, to believe all the crap that is being produced by the sunday-shopping-ban supporters.
Luka: "Again, I thought there was something called a referendum."Of course there was. However, that doesn’t mean that the public debate is over. For example, I happened to agree with the outcome of the recent broadcasting referendum (simply because I think that it will introduce more direct accountability), but I still listened to people who didn’t share my view and continued to debate the matter with them. In this case, I just disagree with the decision of the people that the State – and not individual business owners – should regulate private companies’ opening hours. I don’t dispute the results of the referendum."You see, the Government HAS the right to regulate public enterprise."Yes, it does have that right, but I fail to see any need for it in this case, and I believe the government should always demonstrate why new regulation – especially such extreme, heavy-handed regulation – is necessary. We are not saying that the law is inherently unconsitutional, just that it’s A.) inconsistent, B.) unnecessary, C.) excessively restrictive, D.) against the spirit of free enterprise, E.) potentially fatal for many small businesses, and F.) potentially destructive for the Slovenian economy. Just because the voters had a different opinion doesn’t mean that our concerns are not legitimate.
Cookie: "Right now, they are trying to pass a bill which would enable us to have referendum only once a year."Maybe we’ll end up having a referendum about that.
AZ2SI:Now I totally agree with you. Except on one thing: I believe the public debate IS over, for the moment at least. Or at least it should be. We had a referendum, the people decided, let’s just get over it. I don’t think it’s a tragedy if the shops are closed on Sunday (as I wouldn’t have thought so if they’d stayed opened, if the people had decided that way). But I find that trying to (now I’m not aiming at you or anybody in this forum, but on the buisiness lobby) pass over the referendum results it’s a bit undecent. Let’s just keep it this way for a couple of years. Maybe the folks will get used to it, then we’ll keep the law. If not, we can as well change it.Pa mirna Bosna…
I like happy endings.Now I just have to decide if I should close commenting over the weekend or leave things open…
I haven’t read all the comments, so perhaps someone has already said the same, but it’s no use complaining … Why did only 27 % of people bother 2 or 3 years ago and now everybody else think that having shops closed on Sundays is a terrible unfair? It’s you who decide, people, and if you didn’t vote, that’s your fault.(I didn’t because I hadn’t been eighteen by that time)
Tina: have you ever thought that maybe most of us rather surf the net, than go to the votings (I did vote though).
OK, I just couldn’t resist. Michael, thank you for leaving the commenting open :))) As far as legal nuances are concerned: Those posters who said that referendum was legal are absolutely correct. But: the results of the referendum are no longer binding. As more than a year has passed since the referendum, the parliament can decide any way it likes. it is not bound by popular vote on the issue anymore. Thus we have before us a text-book exsample of cheap populism by those parliamentarians who claim to have fulfilled the will of the people. They had all the time in the world to do so but didn’t. Why do it now? As far as the "foreigner" thing is concerned: The remark by Simon was trully tasteless, especially since Michael has proven time and again that he understands Slovene persona far better than native Slovenes understand ourselves. And Michael’s vigorous qouting of the articles of constitution make him a full-bloded Slovenian (if all of the reasons he quoted above fail to please anybody). The only two things Michael has to do become a Slovenian from head to toe is to file a complaint to the Constitutional Court - and start a political party :)))) But in all seriousness: what bothers me about this law are the hidden motives behind it. I can only speculate what they are, but make no mistake - respecting the will of the populace wasn’t one of them. I still stand by my previous post that it is an attempt at social engineering: The government and the slim majority it holds in the parliament are trying to change the behavioral patterns of entire population by means of legislation. Seems a bit stalinistic, doesn’t it? And while the referendum was legaly impecable it does leave a sour taste in your mouth when you see that a mere 27 percent showed up. The minority of us who oposed closing the stores on Sundays were left to defend the flag of freedom of consumer choice, and now even those who didn’t vote feel the consequences. I hope they learned their lesson. But here we are, bitching about it and doing nothing. Maybe we could raise 40.000 signatures (a piece of cake given the popularity of Carniola.org), hold a referendum and reverse the decision. Anybody feeling up to it?
Pengovsky: "The government and the slim majority it holds in the parliament are trying to change the behavioral patterns of entire population by means of legislation."While the Religious Right certainly deserves its fair share of the blame in this instance, so does a significant segment of the Left, which still fails to recognize that we live in a free market economy. After all, a number of labor unions joined the Catholic Church in supporting this measure. If it wasn’t for them and this unholy alliance, the referendum may have failed, paving the way for a very different outcome in the parliament.
Pengovsky: "But here we are, bitching about it and doing nothing. Maybe we could raise 40.000 signatures (a piece of cake given the popularity of Carniola.org), hold a referendum and reverse the decision. Anybody feeling up to it?"While you may be slightly overestimating the readership numbers of this wonderful blog (no offense, Michael!), I’d be all for it!
AZ2SI: An unholy alliance indeed! It was trully poor judgement on the part of the unions to support the idea. However, the so called will of the people (which the parliament was not bound to fulfill anymore, as I pointend in my somewhat lengthy post) was enacted only when the right-wing government came to power. A right-wing government executing the Church’s agenda. Simple as that. As far as the unions are concerned I was trully dissapointed in their lack of a broader perspective. As for the signatures: Great! we now just need 39.998 more. But the more I think about it the more it seems to me that we may be onto something here :))
Michael, next time you should discuss why you support the introduction of flat-tax in Slovenia and you will get even more replies than you got this time.As for the shopping ban, I don`t support it, but the people have spoken.
Well, personally, I’m against closing shops on Sunday. But, as people have said before, if you didn’t vote in the referendum it’s your problem.Yes, the referendum results aren’t binding after 2 years. But do you seriously think anyone would be willing to disregard any such decision, especially since it was what? Less than 3 years ago? They’d be facing political suicide, especially since we’re a young democracy and everything that has to do with democracy is viewed as sacred by politicians (only in their communication with the public, of course). If you followed the latest happenings, you’d see the opposition is criticising the government for not fulfilling the referendum’s decision, even though it is not binding anymore, quoting that as such it does not represent the will of the electorate. They obviously want their law to stand (which later went to the constitutional court and got reapproved, the reason for this delay) and not the current government’s law, which is much more lax on this issue. Let me remind you the previous government set up a very small amount of exceptions and a maximum store area of 80 sq. m. The current government changed it to a maximum of 200 sq. metres and included exceptions such as tourist centres, spas, etc. Now, call me stupid but I don’t see how the current government is trying to change the social and cultural aspects of this country with this law. To me, it seems that it’s trying to minimize the negative effects of the decision and still respect the referendum. I’m willing to bet 3 potatoes and a squirrel that if they totally disregarded the will of the people (which they can legally do), the opposition would attempt to stage a media lynch of the government for not obeying the decision of the referendum. Whether it would be successful or not, I don’t know. But it would definitely have an effect.The solution? Make voting in referenda and elections mandatory and punishable by law (this system is used in some countries, such as Malta and I think Belgium). This way we can prevent such fiascos in the future. But of course many will see it as a breach of human rights or something in that area. And boom, we’re right back where we started.
Pengovsky: "As far as the unions are concerned I was trully dissapointed in their lack of a broader perspective."What?! The unions lacking a broader perspective? Never! ;)Matt: "I’m willing to bet 3 potatoes and a squirrel that if they totally disregarded the will of the people (which they can legally do), the opposition would attempt to stage a media lynch of the government for not obeying the decision of the referendum."At the risk of sounding like Instapundit – indeed.BTW, great comments, everyone!
matt: interesting thoughts. as far as the enactment or disregard of
the referendum goes, i think the whole thing is a win-win situation for
the oposition. see, if the government enacts a law that will have some
negative economical and some quite practical outcomes, the oposition
wins. if it doesn’t, and it disregards this mythical "will of the
people", it wins. great, isn’t it? the whole thing is a booby trap, set
by the former oposition, a sour apple that these same people are now
forced to bite into. as far as unions are concerned, i
think this referendum was a bluff set too high, and played too early.
in my view, the whole idea of a "should we close on sundays referendum"
was a leverage point, a straw bogey man meant to get the unions better
position in demanding their due sunday paycheck raises. as it happens,
they played their cards wrong and managed to make the worst case
scenario come true.to the people out there, going "i don’t shop
on sundays, close ‘em down": i think you’re all a joke. show some
empathy people. you don’t shop on sundays. great. what happens to
people who do? i for one, don’t drink vodka, so we should stop selling
it. i don’t much appreciate action flicks, so why are they still
showing them in cinemas and on tv? i don’t have kids, so why don’t we
close all those insulting kid’s clothes stores? i never get a period,
so what the hell are those blasphemopus tampons and the like still
doing in shops? get
a grip people. think broader. i for one can’t remember the last time i
went to a shop on a sunday, but i don’t think they should close.
as
for the referendum iniciative here… could we possibly alter it
slightly to make my political wet dream come true? i have a dream… of
a Referendum to stop all referendums… of a Final referendum… of a
referendum about a law, stating that this political tool is to be used
properly, on occasions when a broader national consensus is required,
and stop having meaningless referendums… if we start one like that,
i’ll be first in line to sign.
Waaay off topic, but since Luka wrote: "… Pa mirna Bosna…" Since there’s no place to shop today, I’m curious:What are the origins/is the meaning of this expression? I heard it used all the time while growing up, and briefly revisited the topic (to no avail) when Bosnia hit the front pages in the early 90s.
Matt: I’m not calling you stupid, but I’m sure you have the idea of 200 sq meteres. That’s near nothing. Put in a couple of shelves and you get your average village grocery. The 200 sq metres clause is the very proof of social engineering. With governent making it impossible to buy wherever a consumer likes (a local grocery or the hypermarket), people are being directed to a set of stores which provide only limited goods. Why? If I can buy a loaf of bread in a 199 sq metres store, why can’t I do that in a 19.999 sq metres megamarket?
@Bob (re: Pa mirna Bosna): I believe it originates back to 1908 when Austro-Hungarian Empire annexed Bosnia (then formally a part of the Otoman Empire), claiming to do so to enforce law and order. Hence the expression: Pa mirna Bosna… But I’m not sure where the expression originated (Austria, Bosnia or perhaps Serbia)
Pengo - Hvala! Makes sense. Zivjo!
@Bob:About the expression "mirna Bosna". I don’t know where it originates from. But as far as I know it’s unknown to Bosnians, Serbians and Croatians. It has to come from the years 1878-1908, when Bosnia was the number 1 issue on the Balcans, with an undefined status and constatly present in the Austrian (whish means also Slovenian) press.I remember a quote from Drago JanÄ?ar’s essay "Short Report from a Long Besieged City". In the early 90-ies a small group of Slovenian writers and poets (JanÄ?ar, Grafenauer, I tjink Snoj, too) visited the besieged Sarajevo. When JanÄ?ar met with Bosinain president Izetbegović, he told him that Slovenians say "mirna Bosna" when they want to say "let’s put an end to the discussion". Izetbegović didn’t know that. So JanÄ?ar told him, "I guess the expression is used because in reality Bosnia never was at peace." "I guess so", Izetbegović replied. Anyway, great essay, I reccommend it to all!
Pengovsky: But does that mean that we can call the previous government’s limit of 80 sq metres an even larger social engineering? Hardly. My opinion is that the clause just prevents from every single shop of taking advantage of the exceptions (for example megamarkets in the designated spots), but still allows enough space for a normal gas station or something to work. Do you know most of the new gas station would have to be partially closed on Sundays just to come in line with the 80 sq. metres limit? I think 200 sq. metres is much more easy on them.And again about that social engineering. Every government does its bit of social engineering. And please, don’t take any offence, but I think you’re letting your political stance play a role too big for its shoes here. You’re giving me this "proof" of social engineering by the current government, but in the same way I could give you endless "proof" that the previous government did the same or even more social engineering. For example, you’re saying that JJ is trying to enforce christianity and control the media. In the same way I could say LDS intentionally de-christianized this country (and as proof I would give you census data from 1991 and 2002) and that LDS controlled the media by selecting which organizations contributed their members to the council of the RTV, by putting its people in charge and also employing the journalists of the right colour. Proof? A recent survey showed a great majority of journalists in Slovenia see themselves as leftist.And at the end of the day, where would we be? Right back where we started.And besides, the people decided it (in any way you want to look at it), so in the end any significant social engineering that might happen (I seriously doubt it though) with this law is purely our own fault.Cornelius: I agree with you on the unions bit. They did take it a bit too far and got their fingers burnt. I don’t think they realized how much this was in the interest of the Church.
Matt: For example, you’re saying that JJ is trying to enforce christianity
and control the media. In the same way I could say LDS intentionally
de-christianized this country (and as proof I would give you census
data from 1991 and 2002)If
they copy the Austrian idiotic laws, like the one about sunday
shopping and the one about RTV, they could also copy some good ones…
like the one about church tax. It is easy to talk, but when the
money is involved, then people really show there their heart lies. And
it is also the most fair way of finding the exact number of people belonging to this or that church.
Matt: Good point there, however… Although one might argue that commerce is today’s religion, I don’t think that closing the shops on Sundays and keeping Church out of schools are the same things (regardeless of how one feels towards either of those issues). The social engineering thing still stands. Why? Because people are not given a choice. If I want to spend my day at a mall and spend all the money I’ve got, I should be allowed to do so. Period. It is not just about bread or butter. It is about making sure that people do not get the "wrong" kind of entertainment. And I’m not letting my political opinion get in the way(I lost that couple of years ago). What I am letting get in the way is my svetovni nazor (Weltanschauung - couldn’t find the english word), which is somewhat inclined towards government intervention, but this is waaaaay too much.