- Michael M.: Too much going on. Life in flux, etc..
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- gandalf: Did you only get caffeine through Dr.p or did you drink coffee as well? I’m interested, since...
- neeka: nine kilos… wow… :) happy holidays to you, michael, and to all your loved ones! veronica
- m: It was a bargain. No strings attached.
Ljubljana, Slovenia.
Maribor, Slovenia.
Portoroz, Slovenia.
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• Natalija Verboten
Like Natalija Verboten, Slovenia’s population pyramid is dangerously top-heavy.
Slovenia is facing a double whammy in the near future: 1) The lowest fertility rate in the EU, and 2) One of the smallest populations in Europe. It’s clear that there’s going to be a lot less Slovenes in a few years, although estimates vary. Eurostat figures that by 2050, there will be around 100,000 less Slovenes than now. The UN, meanwhile, thinks the population will drop by half a million.
The ones that remain will also be older. By 2050, according to the Slovenian Statistical Office, a full 31% of the population will be over 65. The U.S. Census Bureau predicts that people over 80 will be the single largest demographic group in Slovenia by then.
It’s clear that this will cause a host of problems. The question is: How to reverse the trend? Or, perhaps the better question is: Can it be reversed? As Wolfgang Lutz observes here (pdf), so far no country has ever recovered after dropping below the low-fertility "trap" of 1.5. Slovenia crossed that threshold around the time of independence. (See page 13 of the report. And for a detailed discussion of the entire report, see here.)
Of course, most western countries are facing a similar demographic challenge; Slovenia’s small size only makes the problem a big fat mess. For one, if immigration is the solution, what happens when immigrants outnumber Slovenes? And if the work force isn’t artificially bolstered from outside, what will happen to things like pensions?
As Vlad asked a long time ago: What is to be done?
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Pensions are doomed. Something that brings a smile on face of an insurance agent.
The whole thing reversed? I doubt it. Too much people prefer luxury over kids.
Too much people does not have the luxury to have kids. The whole system needs to be changed because everything is connected. The schools, the apartments, the jobs, the pays… and there are negative examples of having kids everywhere. Nobody shows the positive side of giving birth. What`s the point then? Bob leta award this year went to a doctor who said… "»Propadla so vsa nekoÄ? cvetoÄ?a velika podjetja in ljudi postaja
strah, skoraj ga ni, ki ne bi imel brezposelnega sorodnika, znanca,
prijatelja. Kdo bo Å¡e rojeval otroke v svet strahu?«"(Almost every once-major company went down and people are getting afraid. Almost everybody knows someone who is unemployed. In such world of fear, who do you think will be crazy enough to have kids?) I agree.
Things like that always fascinates me. I think in five years there are going to be 7 billion people living on earth. I remember we were taught in school that we are 4.5 billion. On the other hand Slovenian are threaten to be extinct.Global warming problem is similar phenomenon. Glaciers are supposed to be melting, but it seems to me it is getting colder and colder. If you don’t believe, ask whoever you want in Slovenia (and many other places) these days.
Michael M.: "For one, if immigration is the solution, what happens when immigrants outnumber Slovenes?"Well, if naturalization and assimilation are encouraged, that shouldn’t be a major problem. While not — by any means — a nation of immigrants, Slovenia has seen foreign settlement for centuries, and almost all of those people eventually became Slovenian.Cookie’s quote: "Propadla so vsa nekoÄ? cvetoÄ?a velika podjetja.""Cvetoca podjetja?" (Thriving companies?) They only appeared thriving because they existed in an unsustainable, inefficient, uncompetitive, "faith-based" economic system. It was all an illusion, a Potemkin’s Village, which is why many of them failed after a free-market, reality-based economic system was introduced.
AZ2SI: I hope you’re right. I have serious misgivings about it, though. I’ve met a lot of foreigners here, and a substantial number of them have no interest in assimilating or even learning the language. As strange as it sounds, there are people who have lived here for many years and ordering beer or coffee is the limit of their language ability. The fact that it’s already entirely possible to survive speaking only English here doesn’t help things. It also seems to me that Europeans are generally lousy at assimilating — look at Germany, with its third-generation Turkish immigrants who aren’t considered "German." Or the recent troubles in France. I don’t think there’s anything to indicate that Slovenia will do any better than the rest of the continent. I hope I’m wrong, though.
Michael, you miss the point.It’s more space for us, every year! Yipeeee!!! =)
Now seriously, this is just another symptom of the craziness
of Western system. If you’re so trapped in it that you can’t
think of having children, that means we’re more screwed up than we
thought we were.We have a saying in Spanish that says that ‘every baby brings a loaf of bread with him’. Some of us believe on that too!ps:
having kids, a luxury? OK, I know one person who was making a lot of
money who had 9 count ‘em nine kids, and was very happy. It’s
absolutely a cultural thing, some cultures invest in luxury cars or
expensive toys, other in kids.
The problem is that cause and effect are being mixed up. The ageing of the population is the effect and not the cause of problems. The luxury-over-kids issue is an effect and not the cause. The main problem is that young people (like myself) are finding it increasingly diffucult to go away from home. And they are by no means spoiled. It just is not feasible:It is impossible to buy an apartement in Slovenia. If you’re in your late 20’s, earning 100-150 thousand tolars monthly, you cannot get a loan to buy a decent flat (somewhere around 40-50 sq metres). And a decent flat you need if you want to move in with your girlfriend and start a family.Only a week ago I was doing a calculation: To get a loan of 24 million SIT (which would buy a 44 sq metres flat somewhere in Ljubljana), my woman and I would have to pay 160.000 SIT monthly for a period of 30 years. Which means that We’d have paid 58 million tolars!!! for a 44 sqaure metres appartement.It’s a catch 22: You’ve got the money, but it’s not nearly enough to start living on your own. It’s not even nearly enough to start a savings scheme. So young people just spend it. And they’ve no money again.
Pengovsky, young people like yourself are spoiled. Why would you want to buy an apartement in order to have kids? You can always rent.
@Katore: I don’t know where do you live, but:-renting an appartement in Ljubljana is almost just as expensive as getting a loan to buy one-most of landlords in Slovenia will not rent you a flat if you plan to have kids-most of landlords will not rent you a flat legaly (i.e.: no lease contract will be signed), thus leaving you without any legal protection if he/she decides to kick you out-NOONE will rent you a flat for five-to-ten years. I don’t know about you, but I want my kid to live his/her early years in a known enviroment, going to the same school and meeting same friend, thus making sure he acquires proper social skills. I WILL NOT let my kid be a social outcast by moving constantly and not letting him/her make any really good friends.-And another thing: If I buy a flat, that means that I own property - giving me financial security. I can always sell it later - or take out a mortgage and buy a bigger one (because 40 sq metres is really not much not for a family of three, let alone four).-And my dear katore: Please, do not talk to me about being spoiled. That’s just hitting below the belt. I will not inquire as to your living arrangements, but I’m almost sure that you do not have first hand experience of buying (or long term-renting, for that matter) a flat in Slovenia.
I agree with pengovsky.It is completely impossible to start a life in this country. I am still a student and while in a normal society, I would be motivated to become independent, in _Slovenia_, I have to be a good boy and obey my parents. And no, there’s nothing wrong with my parents. The system is wrong. My admission into the student dormitories depends largely on the income of my _parents_, I am not allowed to use the washing machine at my dorm, and am supposed to take it to my _parents_, I cannot get a credit card (despite having regular income) without my parents’ guarantee to the bank that they will pay my dues if I don’t, I cannot get a normal job, because I am student and supposed to live off the money of my _parents_.And then, when I graduate, what am I supposed to do? Go back home and live with my _parents_?I hope that this changes sometime soon, and that people are actually motivated to become independent responsible individuals.And I’m sorry that this comment became so long.
I could get a credit card, I just needed at least 3 months of regular income shown on my bank account. Also, if you make 150k SIT a month in your late 20’s, well you must not have done very well for yourself.. atleast so far.
Doing well for oneself is a relative term. From a viewpoint of someone who works in a financial institution (such as a bank or an ivestement fund), I’m not doing well, indeed. From a viewpoint of a 50-year-old factory worker about to lose her job, I’m doing quite well. And from a viewpoint of many of my coleagues in the media, I’m lucky just to have a regular job (delovno razmerje za nedolocen cas). What’s important, is that there’s no way in hell that people like myself can buy a flat without being heavily inebted until 2050, let alone start a family. Renting a flat (as pointed out) is usually not the long-term option available.
I agree that us students are completely screwed. Apparently in Slovenia it is just about the same as in Italy. There is no way you can go living on your own while you still study. I own an appartment of 60sqm in the centre of Ljubljana and I rent it for 400€. Now if somebody is earning 150K per month, how the fuck can he afford it? Even if it is 2 people, this means 300K which still is not a lot. I had a girlfriend from Switzerland, that was always trying to make me feel shit, cause I was still living at home and was not indipendent…blah. She was living on her own, getting like 3500€ a year scholarship, 300€ per month from their parents and almost no personal income. Is that indipendence. What is the problem of living with your parents? I really don’t see any point in moving, when you have everything that you want at home. Now call me stupid!
Sorry I might sound spoiled: not everything that you want, but everything that you need!
I’ve always found it interesting that as countries become wealthier, families get smaller. You would think it would be the opposite. The same trend is happening in Ireland, for example. Peoples attitude towards children is changing. In the past, there were higher mortality rates among young children, so folks had more kids to make sure the familt DNA was passed on. Also, the church has less influence on people’s reproducive habits these days. Another problem is that women are putting career before family. When they do choose to start a family in their 30’s, many find they can’t because of medical problems. Apparently, women’s bodies are ripest for reproduction at 21.
So it would appear I am one of the few Slovenes with two small kids (-: But even this modest contribution to the reshaping of our population pyramid might eventually be gone, as I am thinking more and more of moving out of here. Even though life here is not bad at all for my family and myself, I am thinking about how this society is going to look like in 15 years time (the time when my kids are going to get thrown out of the house and will have to start it on their own :-)). 1) A large number of old and retired people, who will need to be supported by the working minority. This will put a heavy stress on the working generation. 2) Looking at the teenagers that I know (close and not so close relatives, neighbours etc.), many of these are dropping out of school, with no clear goals in their lives. It would seem the working minority will be even smaller than it appears, simply because at least half of the current young generation live aimless lives, lacking any initiative. A lot of these people most probably won’t be capable of contributing to the society, instead they will need to be supported themselves. If these are going to be the future of Slovenia, then I am quite worried. 3) Even though the economy appears brighter than the rest of former socialist/communist (pick your choice) world, it would appear the foundation for long-term success and stability is weak. True, there are some well respected high tech companies, but they are very few. Most of the businesses simply sell/buy something to/from each other, wanting to live on the margins. Productivity rate still lags behind the western world, besides the simple production work is being moved to cheaper places. An example of a successful small country (in terms of population) with strong economy based on high tech would be Finland. 30 years ago, they were a rural country on the outskirts of Europe, so they have come a long way. Unfortunately, Slovenia appears to be on a very different path. 4) In previous socialist/communist time, the rule was: society (actually the "elected" representatives of it) comes first, the ordinary individual is not important. Today, this has changed to: I (individual) come first, and all the rest may just as well drop dead. So, we are becoming more and more a dog-eat-dog type of society. 5) I don’t think immigration will reach any significant numbers here. The immigrants go to more lucrative places. Besides, this *is* a fairly xenophobic society. If your name does not sound right, you will be looked down on. If your skin is not white, then even more so. I do know some black people here, and it’s not easy for them, even though they are more capable in what they do than the majority of Slovenes. One had to put up with so much sh*t so that he eventually moved to Canada, where he lives a much happier life. I don’t really see the chance these trends will reverse anytime soon.
Michael,Somewhat misleading stats, don’t you
think? How about all of those immigrants whoe are married to
Slovenes and have kids? Are those children counted as Slovenians
or not? Say, for instance, this guy
. What of his offspring? Do you count them, divide by
two, and then add that to the Slovenian population ticker? Jus’ wonderin’
@Regakvak: Personally I would draw that bleak a picture, but yes, you made some excellent points. Funny thing, however, is, that teenagers tend to reject the "me, myself and I" philosphy - thus lacking clear goals in their lives (of course not everyone, some are just plain losers, but that’s the way things have always been). The thing is that baby boomers (post WWII generation) were robbed twice: First when the system changed, when they had to make the mental switch (society vs. individual)- which they were ill prepared for, AND because of that they lost a prospect of a nice and cosy pension promised to them in the socialist times.Thus their financial security was taken away and a chain reaction started, making it impossible for younger generations to become really independent. Here you have pensioniers getting older and more resilient to forces of biology (nice euphemism for dying, I guess), forcing the existing workforce to work more and more (for less and less) just make ends meet and pay for the pensions, thus making it impossible for younger people to get a decent job early on, therefore making it impossible to get an appartament and start a family. And that makes it impossible to turn the tide of ageing population.All other factors - including career oriented women - are only making things more apparent, but are not the prime reason for the way things are.
Another problem is that women are putting career before family. When they do choose to start a family in their 30’s, many find they can’t because of medical problems. Too right Brian baby, how come no one came up with this genius answer before? Lock us women back in the kitchens where we rightfully belong and all our population problems will be solved, I say! Surely the ban on Sunday shopping is a step in the right direction too: keep the women at home with the brats and give the men some free time to drown pints at the pub.
Veliko slovencev ki zdaj zivi v Argentini se hoce vrniti nazaj… bi bilo to mogoce?
Lucky are those, whose parents managed to buy two apartments, or
another apartment besides building themselves a house; that was mostly
possible only in previous system. I know a few persons who live
‘independently’ in their parent’s apartments. No
such luck for me. I just finished saving with NSVS (stanovanjska
varÄ?evalna shema). Maybe it is enough for 5 sq. meters.
:( So another big loan will follow in the future and it will have to be an old appartment or/and an apartment
outside Ljubljana. But it is still better then a rent, which is what I do now.
Poulette, don’t let your sexism get in the way.
It is either, have kids young and make a career later, or have a career and have maybe one kid at the age of 30+.And it’s not about the gender wars and machism, it’s usually about what is easier. If I’d be able to breastfeed, I’d be happy to be at home with kids. I for one, woudn’t mind being a stay-at-home-dad.
@ poulette: I guess that you would still be able to blog from the kitchen. Still I think that the female emancipation brought with it a load of troubles. Having kids is just one of the womens’ task and somehow their life mission, just as it is for the man to reproduce, but also tu hunt or provide food some other way. BTW I really feel like killing myself aftrer reading this blog in the last days. We are fuckinf doomed!
Pengovsky, the dependence on parents is the core
of the problem for many young people and you described it brilliantly.
It has many causes (unaffordable flats are just one of them). The
consequences of this dependence are disastrous - one of them is that
established views of parents get propagated to younger people in a very
high doses. This is especially worrisome, since parents had grown up in
totally different system which required different skills and behaviour.
So, people should not be surprised when a poll of students reveals that
75% of them hopes to get job in public sector and only 25% in private
companies. Not to mention that role models like Bill Gates, Paul Allen
and the founders of Google are totaly absent. If you are living with
your parents which support you, what other values than "get a steady
government job in which you won’t work too much" can you have? It
worked for your parents, so why it should not for you? Why bother with
risks, entepreneurship, challenging the norms, challenging the parents
(and get, erm… evicted) ?
MaT: judging by the intelligence manifested in your other comments, this one fails to surprise me. Nuff said. BW: let’s not simplify a complex issue, shall we? A good student will finish University at 25. A post-grad degree will add at least another two years to that. Once you’re done, it would be advisable to start working - a couple can hardly afford a family without a sufficient financial basis, which only two working partners can ensure today. But that’s just part of the argument - not everyone meets the right person at 21, not everyone is mentally prepared for a baby at a younger age, etc, etc, etc. And hey, if you wanna be a stay at home dad, be my guest! There are many guys out there who choose this option, breastfeeding aside. But just because something floats your boat, don’t expect the women of the world to share this sentiment, mokay?
Oh yeah, and I couldn’t agree more with Pengovsky.
This matter isn’t helped by foreigners coming to take away your women (myself included).I
suggest we solve this matter by making it easier for these foreigners
to get stay in Slovenia in order to breed with their women here and
create a whole new breed of bilingual Slovenes from which to extract
resources. I think it shall be called the Michael Manske Act, named
after one of its greatest examples. But I think the ‘nation
state’ as a practical concept is not that useful anymore. The state
yes, but the ‘nation state’ as an absolute idea won’t be able to stand
longer than a few more decades, in my estimation.
It seems to me that Slovenia needs a reinfusion of the Trotta spirit.
Wow- I cannot believe how this commentary went from “population decline” to “my life in Slovenia sucks because I can’t move out of my parents’ house and besides I’ll never make enough money anyway”. Not only is the population declining, but I’m surprised the suicide rate isn’t higher.All kidding aside, what I was most struck by is that today’s blog comments might have been written by people in Anytown, U.S.A. The “average” American couple (non-immigrant) maybe has two kids anymore – usually it’s only one. A lot of us have chosen not to have any, for various reasons. A good portion of our population boost is coming from our recent immigrants, of which we have many. I am not about to get into reasons why this is happening, but it is. Possibly it has something to do with immigrants being exponentially more optimistic than those of us who have been here for a while and are jaded and cynical…Yes, our population is aging, too. But for God’s sake, it’s not THEIR fault that medicines have allowed them to live longer, more productive lives. Someday you’ll be old and drooling into a cup, and you’ll want to know that someone is making sure you are not living on the street, right? And since you didn’t have kids, well.. that leaves the rest of us. As far as being able to buy something, no one here has the cash to go out and buy an apartment or house outright – that is why bank loans exist. But why give your money to someone else for the rest of your life and then have nothing to show for it? When you take out a loan, most of the money you pay for the first half of the loan goes to pay the interest – that’s life and that’s how banks make money, but that’s also how people buy houses. The key is to stay there long enough so that you stop paying so much interest. Does that suck? Yes. Did it stop me from buying a house? Hell, no. Because when I sell my house, I will leave with all of the money I have invested in it. Things worth having are seldom won easily. When I move out of a rented apartment I have only what I can pack into boxes. On the other hand, renting can be good, too. When something breaks, you just pick up the phone. Yep, those were the good days….
Michael: Unfortunately, your skepticism about assimilation may be more rational than my optimism.Poulette: "A good student will finish University at 25."25? Please explain this one. Aren’t most university degrees (the equivalent of US Bachelor degrees) four-year degrees? Since Slovenia now has nine grades before high school, people will enter college one year later than in many other countries (i.e. at 19 rather than 18), but they should still be done with their studies when they are about 22, even if they work part-time throughout, right? Or am I not seeing something?Poutlette: "keep the women at home with the brats and give the men some free time to drown pints at the pub.""Pints at the pub"? Will the Slovenian men all go to London? ;) abc: Interesting point!Susan: "Not only is the population declining, but I’m surprised the suicide rate isn’t higher."Whoa! Slovenia already has one of the highest suicide rates in the world. What more do you want? ;)Susan: "But why give your money to someone else for the rest of your life and then have nothing to show for it? When you take out a loan, most of the money you pay for the first half of the loan goes to pay the interest – that’s life and that’s how banks make money, but that’s also how people buy houses."While this is certainly true in the US, the process tends to be much more difficult in Slovenia, hence the frustration.
AZ2SI,The study in slovenia (at university level) takes 4
years plus one year time to finish a diploma thesis. If you are very
fast there is no way you can finish in less than 4.5 years. Some
departments (engineering, mostly) have 4.5 of lectures + 1 year for
diploma. So, in any case, you will be 24-25 until you finish with your
studies. But, surprisingly, actual study takes even longer,
up to 7 years in average on some departments. Remember, unemployment is
high and when people come to the last year of study they (shockingly)
discover that actually nobody wants them - differently from their
expectations that education will give them an edge on the job market.
So they start to drag their studies and maybe work as students (with
healthcare provided by the government, and tax-free) until they are
*forced* to graduate. Job market essentially does not exist (it
is, as many other things, legislated to death by collective bargaining
agrements, and minimum pay requirements for every type of a job one
might want to have - which give employed theoretically extremely good
leverage against employer, but employers are not stupid - they instead
employ cheaper students and force existing workforce into overtime). So,
in slovenia we have a bizzarre situation where employers complain that
there is a lack of engineering graduates, but curiously, they are still
the worst paid segment of graduate population and of course people have
absolutely no incentive to go to engineering studies, regardles of the
wishes of employers.
Susan - sure bank loans are good. But when the monthly payment
equals just about your entire income if you want to pay it off before
you reach 60, it’s not really a viable option now, is it. AZ2SI:
four year studies, followed by a thesis.I’ve yet to meet a Slovenian
person who graduated at 22 or 23, but maybe that’s because most of the
people I know would put Uni on hold for a year or two, because their
student jobs would turn out to become full time rather than part time.
Not to mention falling back a year, which is almost standard practice
and not at all uncommon even with really good students.
You know me! I finished at 23 and promptly catapulted my ass to USA.
I’ve yet to lay eyes on you Crni, don’t mislead the good folks here at Carniola. Anyhoo, you’re a geek, doesn’t count!
Thanks for the explanation, Poulette and abc. I forgot about the thesis requirement. Even so, an average of seven years (for a BA!) sounds absolutely shocking.
AZ2SI,reasoning of students is not that complicated. A good
students comes to 4th year of study and is faced with a dillema:
graduate and prepare for long unemployment or, try to hold on to your
"student" status, work tax free until you can and postpone the moment
of inevitable (graduating into joblesness) to as far into the future as
you can. One can see that kids would come far far in the future in such
reasoning.
abc: "A good students comes to 4th year of study and is faced with a dillema: graduate and prepare for long unemployment or, try to hold on to your "student" status, work tax free until you can and postpone the moment of inevitable (graduating into joblesness) to as far into the future as you can. One can see that kids would come far far in the future in such reasoning."That’s exactely the point! Thanks, abc.
AZ2SI: ‘While this is certainly true in the US, the process tends to be much more difficult in Slovenia, hence the frustration.’ Since I haven’t tried to buy a house in Slovenia, I can’t really compare. It’s probably a bitch everywhere, but U.S. banks are incredibly “debtor friendly” so I can see what you mean.Poulette: “Sure bank loans are good. But when the monthly payment equals just about your entire income if you want to pay it off before you reach 60, it’s not really a viable option now, is it.”70% of my mortgage payment goes to the bank for interest. 10% goes to taxes and insurance. Most of the rest of our income goes to “the basics”. Our house, while we love it, is pretty much a money pit that leaves us with a pittance to spend on our poor excuse for a social life. And shopping? Not so much. There are no Diptyque candles scenting my lovely abode in the near future ;-)Speaking of an option that’s not so viable, I haven’t got a prayer of paying off my house. Ever. Let alone by age 60. But lots of people never actually do, at least not in the conventional sense. We rely on the continually escalating housing prices to make enough money to someday downsize and buy a tiny house somewhere out in the country. Or out of the country. We (“we” meaning “my husband and I” – I can’t speak for the rest of the country – God knows what they’re doing buying these McMansions) look at buying a house as a sort of bank account that you can also live in.Yes, it’s sucking us dry, but we will leave with something when we sell it. And we’re learning lots about how to fix things!
Having missed a good portion of today’s debate (which is just lovely, by the way) I feel compelled to react to several points of view:@abc (dependence on parents): To a point I can agree. But only to a point. The dependence on parents is not just something that gets propagated down the family tree. Getting any kind of job is difficult for an inexperienced just-graduate. When a young person comes in and applies for a job in the private sector (maybe a well-off PR firm making big bucks by working for several state-owned firms), the first question he/she is asked is "Can you work on "studentska napotnica"?" for the uninitiated: "studentska napotnica" is a lovely way of students getting summer- and part-time jobs. It is meant solely for students, but is often abused because the employer does not have to pay social security contributions and other taxes for the employee.Our prospective employee, who is so keen on working for an established company readily agrees, forgetting that he/she has NO social security and there is no record of them ever being employed - thus being without experience at least on paper.As for the spirit of rebellion… I missed the generation X by a couple of years (a fact I’m deeply grateful for J), but may I inquire as to whom should we rebel against? The WTO? The Bush administration? Or just the system in general? Rebellion usually consists of doing the opposite of what is expected – maybe that’s what young people are doing… However – there is no single focal point of rebellion At least not in Slovenia. Role models. Bill Gates? The man who stole what later became known as MS-DOS, repacked it and made millions by infringing copyrights? A man who heads Microsoft, the largest monopoly in the world? Remember, it took and entire EU to make MS comply with a portion of EU’s own anti-trust legislation. Why should Bill Gates be anyone’s role model? Because he’s a flunked student? On that merit, the greatest losers in Slovenia have the greatest potential. While the rest of us (myself included) are sorry bastards, working our asses off to spend the rest of our miserable lives in mediocrity.Believe it or not, I do know something about entrepreneurship – because I co-own and run a small company. The side effects? Working long hours every day, seven days a week, NOT being able to buy my own flat (everything I earn goes right back into the company minus such luxuries as food, clothes and occasional move), plenty of grey hair (literally), bad smoking habit (haven’t lit a cigarette before) and somewhat deteriorated health. And I’m not even 30 years old. Not to mention that my line of work is waaaaay different from what I’ve studied at the university. I’m not looking for comfort here, because I did it because I chose to do it. It is not, however, something every student needs to experience. @susan: Of course it is not old people’s fault, that they’re still alive. May they live long and prosper. I was only trying to point out the vicious cycle we’re in. As for getting a loan, people before me have explained that it getting a loan to buy a flat in Slovenia is somewhat of a science. As for the financial scheme… I can understand that the prices are high everywhere, but they are criminally high in Slovenia, Ljubljana especially. A 40-50 sq metres appartement costs some 350 euros monthly to rent (not including electricity, gas and phone bills) and some 92.000 euros to buy (roughly the same amount in US dollars) And remember, we’re talking a flat that accommodates only two people (not a house, which is a real commodity in Slovenia)! Some time in the future this pair will have a kid, forcing them to upgrade (not downsize) their living arrangements. Barring a real-estate market crash they will have to indebt themselves even more to raise the cash. Oh and in case you’re wondering, your monthly installment for paying back the loan cannot exceede one third of your paycheck in Slovenia. That pretty much limits the sum you can borrow. And you must have a regular job. Other sources of income do not count. A friend of mine is an artist and he cannot take out a loan, because he doesn’t have a regular job. Altough he earns enough money on his projects to pay back a loan without any problems.@Poulette: yet again I’m deeply flattered by the fact that we’re in agreement – I just don’t know which part of the debate do we agree on ;)The debate probably really veered off course, but IMHO the ageing population syndrome is a catalyst for all the problems we’ve highlighted today. So, to quote Michael M, who quoted Vlad: What can be done?Sorry for the long post, everybody!
Susan, I don’t think you quite understand. The price of a house in Slovenia is at least 100.000 EUR, 200.000 if it’s in the city of Ljubljana. The gross per capita income is around 20.000 EUR and that’s being generous. Of that, around 33% goes towards social security and compulsory medical insurance. Then a further 16% for taxes. One is left with around 900 EUR in ones pocket. A 150K mortgage with 5% interest over 30 years has a monthly payment of 850 EUR. Mortgage payments are not tax deductible. Keep in mind that most young people do not earn quite 20K a year. Draw your own conlusions.
Thank you crni, for putting it much better than I ever could have
Pengovsky, of course the abuse of "napotnica" is widely
known. And it is hypocritic from the employers to (sometimes) fire a
person who worked for them for a year or more <i> because he or
she graduated </i>. It must sound really weird to our friends
from abroad… As for Bill Gates, he is really a dividing
figure, so I propose to substitute him with Steve Jobs or Larry Page or
Sergey Brinn (google founders). Can you imagine a company like Google
founded in Slovenia? I don’t.
As for rebellion - I ment the rebellion against parents who
didn’t get that the system has changed in 1990. And that pretending
that nothing changed will not get you a dream job with little to work
and good salary - a dream job of our parents. I know too many young
people driven to edge of insanity by their parents demanding that they
find a steady well paid job with enough time on their hands to come
home at 14.45, so they can help them around the house. (You know, the
job like *they* had in 1970s. And, gosh, this youth is really
incompetent - look how fast *they* got such job in 197x - what is with
today’s youth, they cannot even get such a job, let alone keep it for
10 years!)This is the attitude that is worth rebelling against,
if you want to be independent (at least before your parents die and you
actually <i> inherit </i> the house). Otherwise, it is a
sad reality for too many young people - living at home, obeying their
parents when they are 30 or more, all this when having a job with an
average salary that requires hell of a more effort to keep than their
parents’ jobs 30 years back.
I mean, this is a joke in American Pie - teenage couple having
sex while dad comes knocking on the door and wants them to come down
for lunch. Now, imagine you are 30, you live with your parents
and that is the only way you have sex with your wife. Kinda sucks,
doesn’t it? Do you want kids with that?
Hm…. I agree more and more… except that I’m sure that we can have the cake and eat it. Obviously noone works until three in the afternoon anymore (more like six or seven). But again, we enter the vicious circle: Not getting a well paid job prohibits you from taking out a loan to buy a flat which in turn forces you to live with your parents until god-knows-when, making you even more dependent on your parents, leaving you unable to start a family, leading to ever-ageing population. If you however decide to move away and rent a flat, the rent is most likely killing you and you do not have the extra resources needed to get a loan, leaving you at the mercy of your landlord. You are living on your own (well, sort of, ‘couse you rented it), but you are far from independent. The only thing to "rebel" against here is the fact that NOONE - save the loathed parents - is even willing to help solve the situation. But there must be something that can be done. Besides changing the system, I mean
Oh, I almost missed the Google-like company issue. Of course not. Google happens only once in a generation. But bear in mind that Page and Brin have been PhD students, putting them in a safe place to conduct their own studies (Google as you know is a by-product of these studies). After their initial success with PageRank (now a part of Google) their university (Stanford?) went out on a limb and patented the software out of its own money, then the guys found an angel investor who gave them 100.000 USD, thinking he’d probably never see the money again, etc, etc. It wasn’t just because Brin and Page woke up one morning and said "Hey Larry, hey Sergey, let’s make the best search engine in the world, create a stupendously sophisticated ads programme and become billionares in the process". They made it. But for every single success story there are hundreds of failures. Think Netscape, think every other dot.com firm there was. As for Steve Jobs… Well sure, he can be a role model. It just that he’s ooooooold by IT standards and was there from the begining. The game has changed in the mean time and there are NO rules to it (except the one rule: You’re the youngest. You make the coffee). It is up to us to create the rules, but that’s somewhat difficult if your mother is calling you down to lunch (know what I mean?)
i don’t mean to be a total bitch, but your grammar could sure use a little improvement. shouldn’t a reknowned writer know the difference between "fewer" and "less than"?
A renowned writer perhaps, but not a reknowned one.
Of course the parents are the only one that can help one from this
situation - and if one can find a common language with them a lot of
problems are solved. And, fortunately, people do this. But
nevertheless, that means that people *are* dependent on their parents
well into their 30ties and the my question remains: Do you want kids
with that?
Crni: I do not disagree that Slovenia’s housing costs are quite high, relative to the income you’ve stated. The point I should have brought up instead is that no one in the U.S. (right out of school) is making enough money to buy a house either. Even if you land a great job, you still have between $50K and $100K in student loans to pay off. You are barely in a position to buy furniture to put into a house, let alone the house itself. We did not buy our first house until we were in our thirties and had already been working and saving for quite a few years. If that means waiting until you are in your thirties to have kids -despite the thunderous roar of your biological clock in the meantime- perhaps this can be a good idea. Not only are you more prepared financially, but mentally as well, so you should make better parents. And in the meantime, if you have to live at home, well…yeah…that sucks. My husband lived at home when I met him so I can speak with some genuine empathy. But, enough of this topic – I have to get back to work. If I get fired I’ll lose my house!