so, the moral of the story is always have a friendly match in Germany. Let them take care their own mess and get blamed.

     by fxas on March 29, 2005 at 6:59 am

This reminds me of a sports discussion I had with my fiance regarding the first soccer game I watched online, I was working, watching the game and took time out to briefly call him, the game was an important one between some big time English club, and a big time Turkish club. Well being a person of such mixed heritage as I am, well ethnicity is simply not an adequate basis to decide who to support so I said to him ‘J*b* ga I don’t understand this game too well, I’m just going to watch the hooligans. I don’t even have a side with the hooligans, but I’m betting the Turks have better hooligans’ He laughed himself sick. (He’s Bosnian Croat if that makes any difference, and I have some Bosnian Croat ancestors, some Serb ancestors, Some Slovenians and some Turks, as in honest to Allah proper Turks I also have both Irish and English ancestors not to mention Russians and German Jews. I’m still figureing out how any of my ancestors got together frankly..) Anyway as I recall the game was in Amsterdam and between the English and the Turks, Amsterdam looked like the Wrath of God had hit, with compounded interest. I watched this all in pixilated herky-jerky color on my very first lap-top.

     by Katja on March 29, 2005 at 7:12 am

Happy Easter Monday everyone!

     by Katja on March 29, 2005 at 7:14 am

always have a friendly match in Germany.

Of course, then if violence broke out you would hear: Look at these barbaric Slavs, they come to our country and trash the place –> I can’t believe we let them in the EU –> Slovenia is totally uncivilized.

It’s a no-win situation.

Katja: Hooliganism in Europe is one of life’s strangest mysteries to me. Europe is otherwise such a passive, peaceful place. I would take my child to any sporting event in the U.S. and not worry, but I would never take my child to go see Ljubljana-Maribor play, or Croatia-Slovenia, and definitely not any game involving Serbs on one side and Croats on the other. It’s quite odd.

     by Michael M. on March 29, 2005 at 8:54 am

No question: Beckenbauer could formulate his critisism in a more appropriate way. But, if reasonable, it should be possible to critise. So what happened:
according to Handelsblatt.com: “DFB-Sprecher Harald Stenger berichtete, die Sicherheitskräfte hätten gesagt, beim Qualifikationsspiel gegen Italien habe es auch keine Probleme gegeben. An viele der Randalierer sind vor dem Spiel Tageskarten verkauft worden, im Stadion war der Block der deutschen Fans nicht von dem der Slowenen getrennt.”
Berliner Mogenpost: “Bereits am 7. März machten die ZIS-Fachleute in einem Schreiben die slowenischen Sicherheitsbehörden darauf aufmerksam, daß zu dem Länderspiel zahlreiche Krawallmacher anreisen würden. Rund eine Woche später konkretisierten sie gar ihre Hinweise: Genaue Zahlen über die aus Deutschland anreisenden Chaoten wurden nach Celje übermittelt.” … “In der obligatorischen Organisationsbesprechung wenige Stunden vor dem Anpfiff wurden die Slowenen nochmals auf mögliche Gefahren hingewiesen und darüber hinaus aufgefordert, Verbesserungen im Stadionbereich vorzunehmen - mehr Sicherheitskräfte etwa und eine klare Blocktrennung der Fanfraktionen.” (sorry for the german citation)

The slovenian police was asked to take reasonable precautions - so, I understand why Beckenbauer formulated the sentence above a little bit enraged…

     by Jebenhausen on March 29, 2005 at 9:49 am

Well there was that massive brawl in Indiana, during an NBA game, some time back.

But yeah… I guess I know what you’re saying. I was fortunate (or unfortunate, since I don’t understand baseball really well :P), enough to witness the game between Yankees and Red Sox(game one), when I was in Boston last year It was clear how much the game meant to all the fans there, yet some of that nationalist charge was missing or something. It’s hard to explain. It appeared like they still took the game for what it was - a hobby. A pleasurable pass-time activity. With a passion, but not deadly serious. While some games in the slovene football league and most games involving 2 nations of former Yugoslavia remind me more of a battleground, where all past resentments come forward and boil over. It’s logical, why I would stir those emotions up in people if you think about it: sport in a way is a recreation of a war. 2 sides opposing eachother, trying to win. Somehow all that gets confused in some people’s heads.

It’s a different story for british hooligans (probably German ones as well, but I don’t want to speculate). Those aren’t even sport fans. They are just blockheads who only come to matches to pick fights with the other team supporters. Those are the people who threw chairs and knocked over tables in pubs decedes ago and have since found refuge (and excuse) for their behaviour in sports.

     by freddie on March 29, 2005 at 12:07 pm

The scary thing is that a lot of people actually use that chart actively when it comes to any ex-socialist state. At least everywhere I’ve lived…

     by JS on March 29, 2005 at 12:41 pm

personally, i am all for a sign that says “you are going to be beat senseless the second any of you throws as much as a straw onto the field”.

And when somebody actually does something that is not in accordance with the game and the “friendly” spirit on it, they should stop the game, drag the bastard in the center of the field and then every player would take a kick at his nuts.

…and they all drank lemonade. the end.

     by cookie on March 29, 2005 at 1:28 pm

Well, my question is (and interestingly enough — I haven’t seen anyone anywhere asking this yet! Seems really weird!): Who’s gonna pay for the damage? The insurance companies? The Republic of Slovenia? The Ministry, the Police? Or the German soccer association (or whatever organization is supposed to be responsible)?

     by Dr. Kruegell on March 29, 2005 at 1:37 pm

Great flow chart, Mike! So true
A lot about sports is different in Europe. You practically don’t see middle class people going to the game - they watch it at home on TV. No families. Who would want to deal with this bullshit?

I guess the ticket prices are not high enough, so all you get at the game is the bottom of the barrel. Panem et circenses…

BTW, what was the lowest ticket price here? If it was less than 20 euros, there’s your problem.

     by crni on March 29, 2005 at 2:33 pm

For me saying that “A lot of hooligans are comming your way, you have been warned” is NOT what I want to hear. If they knew hooligans were comming why didn’t they stop them before they reached Slovenia. Oh I know why, because once they get to Slovenia they were not their problem anymore, we have been warned!
Oh, and once the riots started on the stadium I just watched what would happen. If I was the police officer responsible for that game I would immediately close down the whole section, pack the germans in the bus and off you go. If you don’t stop them immediately things only escalate. They should be no tolerance for violence!
Sorry, but I have no patience for this kind of behaviour. There should be absolutely NO violence on sport events. Allowing this only gives bad example for our children (ah, I can be smart now cause I don’t have any, but you know what I mean).

     by Andrej Budja on March 29, 2005 at 3:02 pm

If they knew hooligans were comming why didn’t they stop them before they reached Slovenia.

There’s a bizarre German regulation, mentioned in this AP story, which explains that German authorities couldn’t stop them from coming because: “special security measures are invoked only for the World Cup and European Championship.” (By the way, I looked for you at the game — I figured you would be there — but was unsuccessful.)

what was the lowest ticket price here?

Now that I think of it, no one even checked our tickets when we entered the stadium, so it was essentially open to everyone and everything that wanted to come in.

Who’s gonna pay for the damage?

I’m very curious about this too. STA is reporting that 65 people were arrested, but that only 13 will appear before a district court in Celje. (I’m guessing they’ll be fined for damages, which STA puts at 12.500 euros.)

However, the Associated Press has some slightly different numbers. They also have 65 arrests — 45 Germans and 20 Slovenes. But out of this group, only five Germans and ALL twenty Slovenes will face charges. I don’t know if it’s true, but it certainly seems wildly unfair.

     by Michael M. on March 29, 2005 at 5:48 pm

Klinsmann apologised this afternoon. So, there.

Hooliganism: the residue of two world wars and a couple dozen of civil ones.

     by Loxias on March 29, 2005 at 6:47 pm

It’s times like these that I’m glad I am an avid football (or soccer for y’all across the Atlantic) hater. Way too much publicity money, overpaid ‘athletes’ who are more intent on kicking each others shins until the result is at least a double fracture than playing clean (Francesco Totti, anyone?), rife with corruption, and a total blackout about use of illegal substances. Yeah, football is the s**t. And to top it all off, a percentage of fans who think the event is a justification for senseless violence. A shameful display. And Beckenbauer’s words really made sense. NOT! Fault Slovenija for thinking football is an amicable sport which invites fair play on and off the field, by both fans and players…

     by Arf on March 29, 2005 at 10:28 pm

Actually I can speak to why baseball usually is calmer, because the teams and players basically are Americans or at least wanna-be Americans. There is no such thing as a Japanese team, a Palestinian team, an Israeli team a Mexican team, a Dominican Republic team, a Haitian team or a Cuban team comeing to the states to play a U.S. team, not even in the so-called World Series. All the places I named have baseball and play it well. Every one of these countries have contributed outstandign players to the game.
Probably the closest the States gets to nationalistic atmosphere at a sporting event is with basketball, lately. Some truely great players have come into the U.S. game from Serbia, and from Croatia. I mean really great players. Well, anyway sometimes the fans of individual Croat or Serb players do show up to games and wave their flags and sing nationalist songs. Most Americans don’t get what’s going on as they don’t speak the language, it’s just pretty singing as far as they are concerned.
Anyway if there is ever nationalistic incident at a game it will be either a basketball game or perhaps a hockey game between the U.S. and Canada. In the old days nationalistic displays occured during hockey games with the old Soviet Union. I can remember though an incident in San Francisco, some Soviet basketball players were in San Francisco, and some got into a nasty little shoveing match with some Americans at Playland at the Beach. I actually saw the incident. The Americans totally started it. The Russian guys were just out to try and have a good time. We were at ‘the Bean Pot’ eatting junk food, anyway my mom noticed the trouble and told my step-dad, ‘uh we need to just get the Hell outta here before there’s a damned riot!’

     by Katja on March 30, 2005 at 7:03 am

oh just get this the guy who started the chair throwing brawl at the game in Indiana, might only get 30 days in prison! That is not useful! Mr. Jackson needs to do more time than that.

     by Katja on March 30, 2005 at 7:05 am

I’ve always sort of speculated that Europe, as a continent, sublimates war and nationalism with football, whereas America, as a country, doesn’t feel the need. not that I have any particular insight into this phenomenon.

incidentally, I’m a big fan of your blog and read it all the time. that’s all.

     by Mira on March 30, 2005 at 8:10 am

I’ve always sort of speculated that Europe, as a continent, sublimates war and nationalism with football,[…]

I agree with that. Also, the lesser, tribal disputes or fights are now usually substituted with praising one or another brand of beer…
I also ain’t no football/soccer fan. Frankly, I think the words “sucker” and “soccer” sound… quite alike. No offense.

     by Dr. Kruegell on March 30, 2005 at 8:56 pm

Hey Michael,

I read your blog all the time. When I first read this post I agreed with you but after thinking about it for a day I came to another conclusion which I wrote up on my site. No offense with the “little-man” stuff.

Nevertheless I find the whole hooligan phenomena here in Europe quite disturbing. Funny, how violent American football is, that the fans are so peaceful afterwards.

     by Karl on March 31, 2005 at 8:03 pm

I understand what all the fuss is. Let the Germans go nuts ! Violence is the only solution to life’s problems….

     by Dr. Death on April 7, 2005 at 7:13 pm

I don’t really understand soccer because I never watched good teams, i’m American. I live in Slovenia though and I can’t understand how the German people can be such Nazi’s all the time. Hitler is dead, change your attitude’s! I can’t wait for one of these German pussy’s to start some shit at a Jezica Baseball game, at our games the players have the weapons and any of you German hooligans come to riot your gonna get a bat in the head!

     by Scott Lykins aka Spinz on April 8, 2005 at 4:30 pm

When I choose to vivit Slovenia, I intend to behave as a responsible human being. Same if I attend a football match, freindly or otherwise. My desire is that the presiding legal sytem prosecute the hooligans, encarcerate them, and have them financially compesate the citizenship and businesses affected by thier misbehavior.I intend to take resposibility for my behavior and I expect the Slovenian government and it’s citizenship to take resposibility for thiers as well. In the case of the German hooligans, take firm, decisive and potent action against these impudent,  undiciplined and pathetic excuse for humans, AND send a message to the EU that Slovenians have  a good strong heart and a tough set of balls !

     by MeUSA on September 6, 2005 at 8:24 am