technically, our independence war is not really a war. A definition of a war includes a conflict that lasts for years and the death toll is measured in thousands. What we had is a “minor military conflict”.

source - lecture on the faculty of social science (FDV)

ps
it pissed off the veterans greatly.

     by cookie on March 22, 2005 at 10:05 am

Well, what they are trying to say with this is that you shuld remember that they are “better people” than those war-crazed Slovenians, for example: “tried to break” - this leaves the impression that the resistance didn’t succeed as opposed to their “Velvet revolution”.

You bring up a great point about the Roma. There were laws passed by the government that force them to move to segregated areas of cities… here is a terrific :
Christian Science Monitor article

I think you should put their e-mail address on a visible spot on your page and call on all visitors to send them mails or sth. like …subscribe them to every possible mailing list. :)))

     by marbit on March 22, 2005 at 10:57 am

A question regarding your link to the handball story. It was noted in the body of the story that “baseball bats” were used in the assault. Although these “bats” seem to have come up in a most unfortunate event, namely the beating of Serbian judges and Serbian journalists, can I presume that baseball is starting to make its mark in the Balkans just like basketball? Or are the bats simply there because of their head-bashing ability? Hopefully, it’s the beauty and the confusion of the game that’ll take hold. Otherwise, a game between, say the Croats & the Serbs, could be a rather bloody affair. Perhaps, they can begin with Wiffle ball ( www.wiffle.com/welcome.htm ).

As regards the Slovakia-Slovenia thing, perhaps the only way to change the story is for Slovenia to take over Slovakia. Well, at least long enough for the history books and Internet sites to be re-written. I’m sure G. Bush would be happy; he wouldn’t be confusing Slovenia & Slovakia again.

     by DarkoV on March 22, 2005 at 2:06 pm

Wow, those guys at slovakia.org are seriously brain dead. “stigma” ?? Grrreat.

In other news, croatian footballer Igor Biscan goes “free _ willy“!

     by crni on March 22, 2005 at 4:57 pm

Incredible! Twenty years ago, every Slovak could only dream, let’s say, of holiday on Slovenian coast! Not to mention the difference that, at that time, existed in standard of living between Slovenia and Slovakia!

     by Seesaw on March 22, 2005 at 5:11 pm

Thanks for posting this; I thought my fellow Slovenians would be interested in this “creative” characterization of our war!

At first, I thought the site’s webmaster, Canada-based Juraj Lisiak (his name is frequently mentioned on his site, so I’m not outing an anonymous individual here), simply didn’t know that much about Slovenia and the 1991 war. However, after some communication, it became apparent that he knew that he was stretching the truth (to put it mildly), and was awfully defensive about it (”The FAQ stays!” or words to that effect). Maybe I got the wrong impression, but I wouldn’t rule out an inferiority complex of some kind. I don’t know why anyone would feel that way about a country as small as Slovenia, but there are all kinds of people out there.

And, yes, he told me that it is the job of Slovenian sites to deal with the “stigma” of the war and being associated with the former Yugoslavia. I replied that Slovenia, the wealthiest post-Communist nation in the world, a rapidly growing tourist destination, an internationally recognized success story, often called one of the most beautiful places in Europe, a stable democracy, etc., most certainly doesn’t have to worry about imagined stigmas of any kind. He also wrote to me that Slovakia gained independence by “constitutional means,” while Slovenia got it through a war. I compared the 1991 war to the Soviet invasion of Cezchoslovakia (albeit with a very different outcome), but I’m not sure he got the comparison. Anyway, of the two countries, only one held a referendum on independence, and it wasn’t Slovakia (polls showed the majority of the population to be against independence there). BTW, like Marbit, I also noticed that “tried to break” jab.

I told Mr. Lisiak that I would show him around the country should he ever decide to visit Slovenia. It’s pretty clear that he has never been to SLO (he refers to “Lubjana” in one section of his site).

I composed this for his guestbook, but since it was down at the time (it still is), I’m publishing it here as an open letter:

“Hello! I’m submitting this guestbook entry because I have an issue with one of the sections on this site. I first discussed this with the webmaster last year. He chose to dismiss my complaint, which is his indisputable right, but I nevertheless feel that I should present the issue here and let other visitors decide for themselves. After all, the site calls itself an “objectiveâ€? source of information, and I’m sure the webmaster won’t mind a view different from his own. I only saw this guestbook when I stumbled upon this site after a long time; that’s why I’m submitting my entry now.

“It is unfortunate that someone would choose to promote his own country by misrepresenting another (much smaller) nation in the process, but that’s precisely what I fear is the case in the FAQ section. There, the webmaster deals with the topic of frequent Slovenia/Slovakia confusions. This is frustrating to Slovaks and Slovenes alike, and I applaud him for addressing the issue. However, he goes on to describe Slovenia as a country “ravaged by warâ€? that experienced “atrocities.â€? Of course, anyone with knowledge of modern Europe will, I’m afraid, recognize this statement as uninformed (at best): Slovenia experienced a brief ten-day (failed) invasion by the Yugoslav Army when it declared its independence, but has been peaceful ever since. While there was fighting during those ten days, it was never “ravagedâ€? by anything and experienced no “atrocities.â€? In fact, Slovenia is a major destination for Western tourists (much more so than Slovakia, despite the latter’s progress) and widely perceived as a European success story. In other words, any Slovenia/Slovakia mix-ups do not come at Slovakia’s expense. In fact, it is entirely possible that Slovakia even benefits indirectly from the enthusiastic coverage of Slovenia in the world’s tourist press (for example, Slovenia was recently named as Britain’s favorite European destination by the Guardian). It is silly to present Slovenia’s Ten-Day War as the DEFINING difference between the two countries (as the FAQ section does).”

And I apologize for making such a big deal out of what is, ultimately, a funny little FAQ section.

     by AZ2SI on March 22, 2005 at 6:04 pm

Oh, you wild Balkan people, you! Don’t be angry at the silly sod. He just wanted to clearly disassociate the two countries by projecting Slovakia – the good and peaceful and Slovenia – the bad and war-ravaged. It’s been a common experience of many Slovaks that they are being asked about the war by foreigners – and frankly some are sick and tired of it (even though they know next to nothing about the petty details).

Yes, I believe the writing is exaggerated and the author should have the decency to tune it down. Exaggerated and inaccurate though it is, I don’t think that peddling dubious and untruthful stories about Slovak Roma “segregation” in retaliation is the correct way to go.

But if the Lisiak guy really wrote about “stigmas” and was stonewalling any justifiable attempts at changing the FAQ a bit, he is clearly a twat and should be harassed via emails.

     by Lemuel Kolkava on March 22, 2005 at 7:14 pm

He sure as hell won’t go writing about per capita Gross National Product, or compare average wages.
It is my humble opinion that the guy is not stupid and thus did it out of spite.

     by freddie on March 22, 2005 at 8:18 pm

I tend to agree with Freddie: I think there is something else at play here that we don’t know about. As I have mentioned, based on the defensive tone of Lisjak’s e-mails, as well as his determination not to change a single word, I am inclined to think that he realized even then that his statements are misleading. Maybe he is trying to get even with some other Slovenian?

Lemuel: I see your point, but we Slovenians have also been also sick and tired of being confused with Slavonia, a Croatian province that really did experience a devastating war (Vukovar, etc.). I don’t see how saying that “Slovakia didn’t experience a war; it was Slovenia that was ravaged by it” really helps foreigners to understand the situation any better.

     by AZ2SI on March 22, 2005 at 8:40 pm

I should add that, in my experience, most people no longer associate Slovenia with warfare, so I assume the same must be true for Slovakia as well. That isn’t to say that people know where Slovenia is — most non-Europeans and even some Europeans don’t — but the war association is no longer widespread. Those that do know Slovenia are far more likely to recognize it as a new EU member or a fashionable tourist destination.

BTW, Lemuel, what do most Slovaks know about Slovenia? The ones I’ve met online have been pretty knowledgeable about the country, but what about the average person on the street? In Slovenia, Bratislava was widely advertised as a fun and affordable New Year’s Eve destination, and several thousand Slovenians visited the city during the holidays.

     by AZ2SI on March 22, 2005 at 9:19 pm

Just noticed. That white boat that seems is being lifted skyward? Is that an assault attack sailboat of the glorious & victorious JNA? No wonder, their exploits are few and far between, especially if they were fighting downwind.

     by DarkoV on March 22, 2005 at 11:03 pm

AZ2SI!, I dont talk with people in the streets … so I wouldnt know what they know; I myself know pretty little about Slovenia - the usual: flag, capital, population, geographical location, major cities, and whatever trivia appears in the news. I guess the average Slovak in the street knows Slovenia about as much as an average Slovenian in the street knows Slovakia.

     by Lemuel Kolkava on March 22, 2005 at 11:38 pm

Thanks, Lemuel. Here’s a list of Slovenia/Slovakia similarities that I came up with recently:

* Both countries became EU members earlier this year.
* Both countries became independent in the early 1990s
from larger, formerly Communist nations.
* Citizens of both countries felt that they were being
ignored before independence.
* Citizens of both countries believed that their
languages weren’t respected before independence.
* Citizens of both countries worship their mountains,
which are a symbol of their nationhood.
* Both countries’ mountains have glacial
lakes.
* Both countries have karst regions.
* Both countries have showcase national parks
containing their most beautiful mountain scenery…and
the initials of both are TNP.
* Both countries are predominantly Roman Catholic.
* Both countries are (surprise, surprise) Slavic.
* Both countries have Hungarian minorities.
* Hockey is popular in both countries (but Slovakia is
far better at it).
* Both countries are far better at soccer than they
used to be (and a recent friendly resulted,
appropriately enough, in a 0:0 draw).
* Skiing is popular in both countries, both among
locals and foreign visitors.
* Both countries border Austria and consider it a role
model of sorts.
* Citizens of both countries enjoy goulash and
wienerschnitzel.
* Both countries have white-blue-and-red flags.
* Both flags have shield-shaped coats-of-arms.
* Both coats-of-arms feature hills/mountains with
three peaks.
* Both countries were once a part of Austria-Hungary.
* Both countries joined multiethnic Slavic states
after WWI.
* Both countries experienced transfers of territory
after WWII (Slovakia lost some to Ukraine, while
Slovenia gained some from Italy).
* Both countries were under communist rule, but not as
independent states.
* A female resident of both countries is a
“Slovenka� in her language.
* Both countries call their language “slovenski�
or “slovenscina.�
* …that’s because the adjective form of both
countries, in their respective languages is
“slovensk–“
* Therefore, you’ll find Slovenska Televizia in
Slovakia and Slovenske Zeleznice in Slovenia. But it
could easily be the other way around.
* You can order a beer in both countries by saying
“Pivo, prosim!�
* Both countries also have growing wine industries.
* Budget airline EasyJet recently started flights to
the capitals of both countries, which are emerging as
popular city-break destinations.
*Both countries’ leading commercial television
stations are, in part, owned by CME, an American
company.
* Both countries are proud of their fancy new shopping
malls.
* Both countries get upset when they are confused with
each other.

     by AZ2SI on March 23, 2005 at 12:06 am

What the frig do you mean, you Balkan people?

     by |=|=| on March 23, 2005 at 12:40 am

BTW, if anyone wants to annoy the guy, but do it in a classy, sophisticated way, I suggest the following: When you see articles that, for example, call Slovenia one of the world’s most beautiful places or Britain’s highest ranked tourist destination (to name two recent real-life examples), send a copy of the articles to him.

     by AZ2SI on March 23, 2005 at 3:42 am

“SLOVAKIA.ORG is a publication dedicated to presenting objective and non-partisan information along with balanced commentary about Slovak politics, society, history, culture, and economy, primarily in the English language. SLOVAKIA.ORG’s goals are purely to educate the public about the Slovak Republic in an accessible and evenhanded way.”

What nonsense!

“The creators of Slovakia.ORG would like to thank the Slovak Ministry of Foreign Affairs, especially S. Polonsky and T. Kralik of the Embassy of the Slovak Republic in Canada, for supplying us with materials and for statistical information.”

Hmm..interesting. I wonder what would happen if the Slovenian Embassy in Canada contacted the Slovak Embassy about such supposed sponsorship.

     by |=|=| on March 23, 2005 at 6:18 am

Juraj Lisiak’s definition of “objective” appears to be similar to Fox News’ definition of “Fair and Balanced.”

     by AZ2SI on March 23, 2005 at 6:33 am

Write protest letters to the Slovakian embassy in Slovenia I digged through the net and found this contact addresses…

Tivolska cesta 4
SI-1000 Ljubljana
Tel.: +386 1 425 54 25
Fax: +386 1 421 05 24
E-mail: ambasada.slovakia@siol.net

     by marbit on March 23, 2005 at 8:29 am

What the frig do you mean, you Balkan people?

I believe it’s called a joke. For what it’s worth, I do agree with Lemuel’s assessment. I think the guy is just sick of the mix-up.

Coincidentally, I just found this site: The Imperial House of Hapsburg, which also seems to be designed by Juraj Lisiak. He certainly seems to get around.

Thanks for the great list, AZ2SI!

     by Michael M. on March 23, 2005 at 10:09 am

Oh boy, now you’re in trouble The “independence war veterans” are mad at you, lol. Another similarity between Si and Sk: both hate gypsies and other minorities as a way to express their nervous “whitehood”. Oh, and both have hot girls.

     by Pedro on March 23, 2005 at 3:54 pm

Michael, thanks for your kind words! I tend to agree with you that frustration over repeated Slovenia/Slovakia mix-ups played a major role here but, needless to say, that doesn’t give one an excuse to spread inaccuracies about other countries. After all, it’s not Slovenia’s fault that people get these two nations confused, so why react as if this is a Greece/Macedonia issue? I should add that whereas these mix-ups affect Slovenians as much as Slovaks, I have yet to see a Slovenian promotional site that even discusses Slovakia, much less spreads untruthful statements about it.

Pedro, I’m not sure if you are kidding, but no-one here is minimizing the sacrifice made by Slovenia’s veterans of the 1991 war: Without their bravery and patriotism, Slovenian history would have been very different. In fact, it’s entirely possible that Slovenia wouldn’t be an independent country today had the Slovenian people just surrendered to the JNA. Just look at how long it took Czechoslovakia to emerge from Soviet rule after 1968.

     by AZ2SI on March 23, 2005 at 7:38 pm

technically, our independence war is not really a war. A definition of a war includes a conflict that lasts for years and the death toll is measured in thousands. What we had is a “minor military conflict”.

I’ve never seen such a weak definition of war. Whoever said this in your lecture is an embarrassment to the profession.

War was declared, battles were fought, Slovenia won.

     by |=|=| on March 23, 2005 at 9:05 pm

Despite all the differences it always amazes me how many similarities both langauges share. In some ways I’d almost say slovene langauge is closer to slovakian than it is to serbo-croatian (part of the reason why the later is more inteligable to us is common history we shared with Croatians, Serbs and Bosnians). I swear if I concentrate, I can pretty much get the gist of a convo two Slovakians are having.

But yeah… there are crucial differences and it’s plain to see Mr. Lisiak is not to keen on pointing those out, so he’d rather post shit that’ll portray us as a struggling war-torn region. Funyn think is that - supposed he did it out of an inferiority complex - he could do a much better job at it. He could easily have mention that Slovakia’s economic growth is (at this moment) larger then ours. Of course he’d keep quiet about the fact, that they have a long way to go before even reaching our current status and that it’s Slovakian workers who’re coming here for better wages and not the other way around, but anyway… at least he’d twist the truth that way. What he did now was MAKE UP stuff. And that’s not cool of our slavic brotha.
I actually remember an interview with a Slovakian politician (minister of foreign affairs, I think…), who said people in Slovakia don’t even mind that much, being frequently confused with a country as successful as Slovenia is.

     by freddie on March 23, 2005 at 9:33 pm

Freddie, I’ve also met Slovaks that shared the views of that politician you quote. I would venture to say that Juraj Lisiak’s perspective is fairly atypical of his countrymen; most Slovaks have a positive opinion of our country. BTW, I’ve also noticed how similar Slovak is to Slovene in many respects. The same is true with Czech, BTW (Czech and Slovak are very similar, moreso than, say, the Gorenjski and Prekmurski dialect of Slovene).

I abosultely agree with the notion that we should be proud of our war and our troops’ amazing victory. The fact that Lisiak not only never acknowledges the victory, but tries to imply it did not happen (i.e. saying that Slovenia “tried to break away”) is yet another reason to believe that this is an intentional, and unfortunate, provocation of his fellow Slavs.

I was thinking: Perhaps it wouldn’t be a bad idea if people shared this controversy with their friends.

     by AZ2SI on March 23, 2005 at 11:42 pm

Another irony is that least year, Canada’s CBC did a critical report on Slovakia’s Roma issue and mistakenly referred to the country as “Slovenia” several times during the broadcast (according to media reports). So this is definitely a two-way street, making Lisiak’s attitude all the more amusing.

     by AZ2SI on March 24, 2005 at 5:05 am

CBC screwed up in back-to-back summer Olympic games, too.

I especially remember being able to hear the arena announcers introducing Brigita Bukovec (who nearly won gold in the photo finish) as correctly being Slovenian only to hear CBC still say throughout the entire broadcast that she was from Slovakia.

     by |=|=| on March 24, 2005 at 3:23 pm

This is not surprising fact why people are confused of Slovenija and Slovakia.This was once one country and one tribe in 8 century.Then Hungarians came and concqured part of this teritory and split this land in two parts.That is why habits,language,simbols….are simular.

     by igipop1 on March 24, 2005 at 5:06 pm

True..except it was primarily Germanic people who split apart Slovenians and Slovaks.

     by |=|=| on March 24, 2005 at 9:45 pm

technically, our independence war is not really a war. A definition of a war includes a conflict that lasts for years and the death toll is measured in thousands. What we had is a “minor military conflict”.

Nonsense. Duration and number of people killed is not part of definition of a modern war. Tactics is developed in many aspects from times of Sun Tsu.

By same words we could call Soviet attack on CZ in 1968: “soldiers came on hollidays” - or what?

     by packer on March 26, 2005 at 4:49 pm

packer: military intervention, I think it’s called.

     by freddie on March 26, 2005 at 10:12 pm

First days they called it so, yes.

After that it become obvisuos that it is a war against new independent state of Slovenia.

In the end it was only bad masked run away of JLA forces.

     by packer on March 30, 2005 at 7:30 pm

I know this is old news, but I was looking through some long-forgotten e-mails, and I found the exact "stigma" quote from Lisiak (mentioned above):"I realize there is a stigma of being a Balkan country and having been associated with the whole Yugoslavian war saga but it’s something that [Slovenian websites] have to tackle… and not this one."

     by AZ2SI on November 23, 2005 at 4:58 am

I posted the following in a more recent entry, but since it provides such a nice conclusion to the Juraj Lisiak Affair (a.k.a. Lisiakgate), and Michael really likes happy endings, I thought I should post it here as well:I recently discovered that our old friend Juraj’s oh-so-objective-and-accurate site Slovakia.org was listed as the official site of Slovakia’s Honorary Consulate in Vancouver, Canada, on various official online listings. This may not be so surprising once you hear that the Consul there is… Stanislav Lisiak (Juraj Lisiak’s dad, from what I gather). Anyway, I send a few e-mails to the friendly Slovenian Embassy in Ottawa, who send a few more e-mails to the Slovak Embassy in Ottawa, and yadda, yadda, yadda… the official links were soon gone. I’m told that the Slovak Embassy also discovered other problems with the site’s content, and, once it became aware of what Slovakia.org was really all about, decided it wouldn’t touch it with a ten-foot pole.Don’t get me wrong, if Juraj Lisiak wants to use his site to speculate about history in parallel universes, more power to him, but governments usually don’t want to be involved with such things. And violating major companies’ copyright is another no-no (and a story for another day).

     by AZ2SI on February 7, 2006 at 10:08 pm